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Japanese DDs dunk by 20mm Fire?

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  • Japanese DDs dunk by 20mm Fire?

    Someone is trying to convince me that 25mm guns on an aircraft could realistically sink a DD and is claiming a few were sunk by .50cal and 20mm fire in WWII. He did not provide a source, and I highly doubt it but trying to do my due diligence.

    also doing my own googling
    the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

    A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
    A man dies and leaves his name,
    A teacher dies and teaches death.
    Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

  • #2
    Which planes had 20mm?

    "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
    Ernest Hemingway.
    “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
      Which planes had 20mm?
      The claim that a DD was sunk by 20mm wasnít specified as an aircraft kill, just that a few Japanese DDs were sunk by 20mm
      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
      A man dies and leaves his name,
      A teacher dies and teaches death.
      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

      Comment


      • #4
        If they make such claims without any reference, itís dubious to begin with. Besides, if it was true, anyone interested would know about it, good bragging rights and lots of stories on the history channel.

        I know there was a F4U-1C with four 20mm cannons, about 200 built but it didnít see combat until 1945.

        One scenario, if it ever happened... the IJN Long Lance wasnít known by the US Navy until 1943. Did a US fighter attack a DD before they could ditch their Long Lances? Any detonation would have been catastrophic for the ship.
        Last edited by Achtung Baby; 14 Sep 18, 18:38.
        "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
        Ernest Hemingway.
        “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
          Which planes had 20mm?
          RAF and RAAF Beaufighters which were used for anti shipping strikes in the Indian Ocean and Pacific theatres. Also RAAF Mosquitoes. Both types certainly made a mess of German naval vessels and I see no reason why they couldn't do the same for Japanese.
          Last edited by MarkV; 14 Sep 18, 18:14.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MarkV View Post

            RAF and RAAF Beaufighters which were used for anti shipping strikes in the Indian Ocean and Pacific theatres. Also RAAF Mosquitos
            Quite so, and extremely potent in that role. The RAAF was fortunate to have those on hand.
            "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
            Ernest Hemingway.
            “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Pappy Gunn outfitted a number of B-25's and A-20's in the Southwest Pacific. The B-25 in particular carried a large number of 50 caliber machine guns in the nose and sometimes swapped some for a 75mm cannon. The P-38 and P-39 both carried a 20mm cannon in the nose.

              To sink a warship (destroyer size and down) one would need to hit something vulnerable. It would also help if the firepower was concentrated to hit a small area together.

              I will say that the IJN lost a number of small ships in the Southwest Pacific. Usually it was barge sized vessels. Later on an Avenger or Helldiver strafing a target would be very effective as well as they carried 20mm auto cannon.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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              • #8
                I think it is possible. I believe that I read about it way back when. Put enough 20mm/50BMG right at/below the waterline and a lot of water will come in. Remember, a 20mm has an explosive shell and DD's really didn't have any armor.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                  I think it is possible. I believe that I read about it way back when. Put enough 20mm/50BMG right at/below the waterline and a lot of water will come in. Remember, a 20mm has an explosive shell and DD's really didn't have any armor.
                  So lumping together the aircraft that have pointed out so far, and they fit within the description of being called a fighter plane... yeah itís plausible.
                  "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                  Ernest Hemingway.
                  “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Could I have read it in Forktailed Devil, about the P38?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post

                      So lumping together the aircraft that have pointed out so far, and they fit within the description of being called a fighter plane... yeah itís plausible.
                      However looking further at accounts of Mosquito and Beaufighter attacks on German destroyers whilst cannon fire messed up the superstructure and on one occasion knocked out a gun turret the real damage appears to have been done by the 57mm Moulins fitted to some Mossies or rockets. The 20mm cannon possibly suppressed the ships AA fire (and not always successfully).

                      Presumably the same would be true of Japanese destroyer attacks.
                      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
                        Which planes had 20mm?
                        P-38, ground attack versions of the B-25, some of which carried a 75mm cannon in the nose.
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                          RAF and RAAF Beaufighters which were used for anti shipping strikes in the Indian Ocean and Pacific theatres. Also RAAF Mosquitos
                          The anti-shipping Mossie, known as the Tsetse, carried a 57mm cannon.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                            However looking further at accounts of Mosquito and Beaufighter attacks on German destroyers whilst cannon fire messed up the superstructure and on one occasion knocked out a gun turret the real damage appears to have been done by the 57mm Moulins fitted to some Mossies or rockets. The 20mm cannon possibly suppressed the ships AA fire (and not always successfully).

                            Presumably the same would be true of Japanese destroyer attacks.
                            Agreed, it just seems to be a lingering story that has its supporters. If it had any validity Iím sure weíd know about it.
                            "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                            Ernest Hemingway.
                            “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I answered your question here:

                              https://forum.worldofwarships.com/to...-by-20mm-fire/

                              No Japanese warships of destroyer size or larger were sunk by aircraft gun fire be it .50 or 20mm. The USAAF in the SWPA did use the .50 machinegun in mass to riddle ships with gunfire. Penetrations of the hull above the waterline could add to progressive flooding but it was skip bombing or rocket fire that did the ships in.

                              The USAAF also found that the 75mm gun was not as effective as a combination of .50's in large quantity and skip bombing so the B-25G / H in this configuration saw only limited service. I have no doubt the British found the 57mm Molins gun less than ideal compared to simply bombing or rocketing a ship.

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