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  • Scuttling of HMS Implaccable !!?



    Anyone know the story here? The second oldest ship in the fleet after HMS Victory scuttled in 1949. Seems like a terrible waste.
    One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions - Admiral Grace Hopper

    "The eunuch should not take pride in his chastity."
    Wu Cheng'en Monkey

  • #2
    HMS Implacable was another Trafalgar veteran. Originally named Duguay-Trouin that fought with the Combined Fleet of France and Spain, she escaped after the battle, but was later captured by Sir Richard Strachan's squadron on the 3rd November 1805.

    The Royal Navy commissioned her as a third rate and served for the rest of the Napoleonic wars.

    She later became a training ship. The Stern gallery is now at the National Maritime Museum.



    HMS Implacable (1805) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Post Captain; 16 Feb 16, 05:22.
    Never Fear the Event

    Admiral Lord Nelson

    Comment


    • #3
      About the only historic relics the Atlee administration were prepared to spend money on preserving were rust belt heavy industries which benefited from government funding at the expense of new technologies
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

      Comment


      • #4
        The Atlee government did fully fund Britain's independent A Bomb project.

        The USA would not provide any information(due to the McMahon Act*), so everything was done from scratch.

        You couldn't get much newer(or more expensive) technology than that.

        In October 1946, Attlee called a small cabinet sub-committee meeting to discuss building a gaseous diffusion plant to enrich uranium. The meeting was about to decide against it on grounds of cost, when [Ernest] Bevin arrived late and said "We've got to have this thing. I don't mind it for myself, but I don't want any other Foreign Secretary of this country to be talked at or to by the Secretary of State of the US as I have just been... We've got to have this thing over here, whatever it costs ... We've got to have the bloody Union Jack on top of it."[42]

        * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...an_cooperation

        I imagine any number of historical treasures could have been preserved if such expenditure was not embarked upon.

        It was, of course, the right thing to do.
        Last edited by At ease; 16 Feb 16, 06:45.
        "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
        "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

        "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
        — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by At ease View Post
          The Atlee government did fully fund Britain's independent A Bomb project.

          The USA would not provide any information(due to the McMahon Act*), so everything was done from scratch.

          You couldn't get much newer(or more expensive) technology than that.




          * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...an_cooperation
          But they were reluctant to move to civil use of nuclear power for fear of upsetting the miners union and this had to wait until Churchill was back in power.

          Britain's lead in things like jet engines and computers was simply thrown away.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm certainly no expert on the development of computers(a bit better informed with nuclear power/weapons), but when it comes to aircraft, the UK was greatly overendowed with airframe and powerplant manufacturers post war.

            It was not a lack of funding that caused the UK to lose it's lead.

            It was a mixture of bad luck(DeH Comet fuselage fatigue cracks/aircraft disintegration in flight) and bad management with massive spending on white elephants such as the Brabazon and Saunders Roe Princess.

            An earlier rationalisation, which of course would have cost jobs, and a more astute management of projects would have seen a much more productive and profitable aircraft industry.

            *Further reading (a very sad but fascinating book- my thoughts):

            Empire of the Clouds: When Britain's Aircraft Ruled the World

            James Hamilton-Paterson

            Amazon Books review

            In 1945 Britain was the world's leading designer and builder of aircraft - a world-class achievement that was not mere rhetoric. And what aircraft they were. The sleek Comet, the first jet airliner. The awesome delta-winged Vulcan, an intercontinental bomber that could be thrown about the sky like a fighter. The Hawker Hunter, the most beautiful fighter-jet ever built and the Lightning, which could zoom ten miles above the clouds in a couple of minutes and whose pilots rated flying it as better than sex.

            How did Britain so lose the plot that today there is not a single aircraft manufacturer of any significance in the country? What became of the great industry of de Havilland or Handley Page? And what was it like to be alive in that marvellous post-war moment when innovative new British aircraft made their debut, and pilots were the rock stars of the age?

            James Hamilton-Paterson captures that season of glory in a compelling book that fuses his own memories of being a schoolboy plane spotter with a ruefully realistic history of British decline - its loss of self confidence and power. It is the story of great and charismatic machines and the men who flew them: heroes such as Bill Waterton, Neville Duke, John Derry and Bill Beaumont who took inconceivable risks, so that we could fly without a second thought.
            http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Cloud.../dp/0571247954
            Attached Files
            Last edited by At ease; 16 Feb 16, 07:14.
            "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
            "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

            "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
            — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by At ease View Post
              I'm certainly no expert on the development of computers(a bit better informed with nuclear power/weapons), but when it comes to aircraft, the UK was greatly overendowed with airframe and powerplant manufacturers post war.

              It was not a lack of funding that caused the UK to lose it's lead.


              http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Cloud.../dp/0571247954
              Britain had the only turbo jet engines capable of further development. The Minister responsible, Herbert Morrison gave two of these to the Soviet Union who used them to develop the Soviet family of turbo jets that powered the Mig 15 etc. He also licensed the same engine design to the USA out of which came the engine that powered the Sabre. He then imposed a moratorium on British engine development.
              Britain also had the first viable programmable computers that could store and repeat code based on projects such as the ACE. A larger project was proposed to build an number for use in British Government departments and at the same time develop it for commercial use. Morrison put the stopper on this and firms like IBM etc overtook Britain's lead.
              After his period in office Morrison did leave Britain with a dome filled with pretentious tat on the banks of the Thames. Funnily enough his grandson Peter Mandleson did the same fifty years later.

              Calder Hall - the world's first nuclear power plant to supply a national grid was originally only intended to produce nuclear weapons grade plutonium. It was the incoming Churchill administration that gave the go-ahead to also use it to generate electricity.
              Last edited by MarkV; 20 Feb 16, 04:56.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                Britain had the only turbo jet engines capable of further development. The Minister responsible, Herbert Morrison gave two of these to the Soviet Union who used them to develop the Soviet family of turbo jets that powered the Mig 15 etc. He also licensed the same engine design to the USA out of which came the engine that powered the Sabre. He then imposed a moratorium on British engine development.
                <SNIP>
                This post is so completely wrong.

                I am about to sit down to watch "A Bridge Too Far" that will go into the early hours of the morning.

                Expect demolition to start some time tomorrow.
                "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
                "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

                "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
                — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Before you do might want to take a look at
                  • Stephen D. Bryen, Technology Security and National Power: Winners and Losers, Transaction Publishers, 14 Dec 2015 chp 4 page 2
                  • Barry Leonard (ed), History of Strategic and Ballistic Missile Defense: Volume I: 1944-1955 . Diane Publishing, 2010 p 162

                  and take a glance at
                  http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...nt_soviet.html
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Post Captain View Post
                    HMS Implacable was another Trafalgar veteran. Originally named Duguay-Trouin that fought with the Combined Fleet of France and Spain, she escaped after the battle, but was later captured by Sir Richard Strachan's squadron on the 3rd November 1805.

                    The Royal Navy commissioned her as a third rate and served for the rest of the Napoleonic wars.

                    She later became a training ship. The Stern gallery is now at the National Maritime Museum.



                    HMS Implacable (1805) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                    Would that be the same stern gallery clearly visible on her as she goes down?
                    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Facsimile.

                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Would that be the same stern gallery clearly visible on her as she goes down?
                      From the Royal Greenwich Museum Collections info.:

                      http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collect...ts/201426.html

                      "In 1947 she was towed into the Channel by the Navy and scuttled 'with full honours', flying both the white ensign and the French tricoleur. Caird paid £300 for the removal and shipping of her figurehead and stern decorations to NMM. The figurehead has generally been displayed; the stern carvings presented a display problem only resolved with the Neptune Court redevelopment of 1996-99, when they were finally unpacked and reassembled on a replica transom installed as part of the NC fit-out."

                      ... here's a photo of the stern gallery sections being reassembled for NMM display:



                      I suspect, RN carpenters jury rigged a facsimile of sorts to fill in for the event/occasion, you'll note how the facsimile is slab faced, and doesn't curve and project out as the original gallery fittings do:



                      Then again, perhaps she sailed, fittings etc. removed, as is.
                      Last edited by Marmat; 20 Feb 16, 11:56.
                      "I am Groot"
                      - Groot

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Probably even simpler that is the original transom minus decorations on the sinking ship. The one on display is a replica with the original decorations added
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                          Britain's lead in things like jet engines [.....]was simply thrown away.
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                          Britain had the only turbo jet engines capable of further development. The Minister responsible, Herbert Morrison gave two of these to the Soviet Union who used them to develop the Soviet family of turbo jets that powered the Mig 15 etc. He also licensed the same engine design to the USA out of which came the engine that powered the Sabre. He then imposed a moratorium on British engine development.
                          Britain also had the first viable programmable computers that could store and repeat code based on projects such as the ACE. A larger project was proposed to build an number for use in British Government departments and at the same time develop it for commercial use. Morrison put the stopper on this and firms like IBM etc overtook Britain's lead.
                          After his period in office Morrison did leave Britain with a dome filled with pretentious tat on the banks of the Thames. Funnily enough his grandson Peter Mandleson did the same fifty years later.
                          Originally posted by At ease View Post
                          This post is so completely wrong.
                          [.....]
                          Expect demolition to start some time tomorrow.
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                          Before you do might want to take a look at
                          • Stephen D. Bryen, Technology Security and National Power: Winners and Losers, Transaction Publishers, 14 Dec 2015 chp 4 page 2
                          • Barry Leonard (ed), History of Strategic and Ballistic Missile Defense: Volume I: 1944-1955 . Diane Publishing, 2010 p 162

                          and take a glance at
                          http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...nt_soviet.html
                          I am sorry that it took me longer than expected to reply.

                          Your earlier post #7 seems to be parroting a poster in another forum who has led you astray:

                          They were even worse with the jet, they just gave it away to the Americans.


                          No we sold it to the Americans in the form of licences but one Herbert Morrison gave it (in the form of a RR Nene and a RR Derwent) to the USSR for free. Thus over Korea both the Sabre and the Mig 15 were both powered by an engine developed from the same Rolls Royce engine. Herbert also managed to enforce a 4 year development moratorium on RR at the same time. He was also the minister who decided that although Britain also led the world in computers at the time we had more than enough for the country's needs (nearly 10) and cancelled all goverment funding (including that for Lions Electronic Office - the world's forst commercial computer). Herbert's grandson Mandy gave us the Millenium Dome!
                          http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...0975&p=1163274

                          1. I am not suggesting the transfer of British jet engines to the Soviets didn't happen, and the Minister responsible was Stafford Cripps, not Morrison.

                          As you will see, less than 12 months ago I was discussing this matter with "Belgrave", and I estimate that I have been aware of such a tranfer for about 40 years or more.....about the same time I have been an avid reader of aviation history.

                          Originally posted by At ease
                          07 Apr 15

                          At a time when it was quite obvious that the Soviets were intent on holding on to Eastern Europe and not allowing any measure of democracy to develop, the Atlee government approved the sale to them of the Rolls Royce Nene turbojet engine and engineering blueprints.

                          http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...-foreign-sales
                          http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...0&postcount=53

                          and "lcm1"

                          Originally posted by At ease
                          07 Apr 15

                          Hi Ken,

                          The waters are a bit clody about this and you may be correct.

                          However, the following may be indicative of the way the current was running at the time:
                          [.....]

                          When Winston Churchill formed his wartime coalition government in 1940 he appointed Cripps Ambassador to the Soviet Union in the view that Cripps, who had Marxist sympathies, could negotiate with Joseph Stalin who was at this time allied with Nazi Germany through the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. When Hitler attacked the Soviet Union in June 1941, Cripps became a key figure in forging an alliance between the western powers and the Soviet Union.

                          In 1942 Cripps returned to Britain

                          [.....]

                          Aircraft production

                          Later in 1942 Cripps stepped down from being Leader of the House of Commons and was appointed Minister of Aircraft Production, a position outside the War Cabinet in which he served with substantial success. In 1945 he rejoined the Labour Party.

                          After the war

                          When Labour won the 1945 general election, Clement Attlee appointed Cripps President of the Board of Trade, the second most important economic post in the government. Although still a strong socialist, Cripps had modified his views sufficiently to be able to work with mainstream Labour ministers. In Britain's desperate post-war economic circumstances, Cripps became associated with the policy of "austerity." As an upper-class socialist he held a puritanical view of society, enforcing rationing with equal severity against all classes. Together with other individuals he was instrumental in the foundation of the original College of Aeronautics, now Cranfield University, in 1946. The Vice-Chancellor's building is known as "Stafford-Cripps".

                          In 1946 Soviet jet engine designers approached Stalin with a request to buy jet designs from Western sources to overcome design difficulties. Stalin is said to have replied: "What fool will sell us his secrets?" However, he gave his assent to the proposal, and Soviet scientists and designers travelled to the United Kingdom to meet Cripps and request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, Cripps and the Labour government were perfectly willing to provide technical information on the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine designed by RAF officer Frank Whittle, along with discussions of a licence to manufacture Nene engines. The Nene engine was promptly reverse-engineered and produced in modified form as the Soviet Klimov VK-1 jet engine, later incorporated into the MiG-15 which flew in time to deploy in combat against UN forces in North Korea in 1950, causing the loss of several B-29 bombers and cancellation of their daylight bombing missions over North Korea.[13]
                          [.....]

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Cripps
                          http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...3&postcount=56

                          2. The North American F86 sabre was NOT powered by the RR Nene, or any US copy of it.....EVER.

                          It was powered by the US made GEj47 axial flow turbojet.

                          (the Nene is a centrifugal flow engine, as you should know from your time spent working at Rolls Royce, and will simply not fit in the space designed to take an axial flow engine of similar net thrust capacity.)

                          [.....]
                          On November 20, 1946, North American received its first order for 33 model P-86s. This contract was increased to 221 on December 28, 1947, with 33 to be P-86As and 188 to be P-86Bs, powered by General Electric J47-GE-1 jet engines developing 5,200 pounds of thrust.
                          [.....]

                          A total of 554 "A"s were built using General Elecric J47-GE-1, -3, -9 and -13 engines developing 5,200 pounds of thrust. This jet engine used a 12-stage compressor with eight combustion chambers and a single-stage turbine.
                          [.....]
                          http://www.sabre-pilots.org/classics/v11first.htm

                          Originally posted by MarkV:

                          The Minister responsible, Herbert Morrison gave two of these to the Soviet Union who used them to develop the Soviet family of turbo jets that powered the Mig 15 etc. He also licensed the same engine design to the USA out of which came the engine that powered the Sabre. He then imposed a moratorium on British engine development.
                          3. According to the following passage(and dealing only with bomber aircraft - and not including fighters, civil passenger aircraft etc), it would seem that during the post ww2 years, jet engine development had not been halted - as you suggested.

                          From Bouncing Bombs to Concorde: The Authorised Biography of Aviation Pioneer George Edwards OM

                          Chapter 11

                          Britain's first V bomber

                          pp74

                          Soon after becoming chief designer, George Edwards, in the utmost secrecy, was required to take
                          responsibility for designing a new state-of-the-art jet bomber for the RAF. Britain needed a new
                          bomber, and needed it quickly. The devastating effect of the wartime atomic bomb attacks on Japan,
                          and increasingly hostile relationships with Russia, necessitated an immediate rethink on future war
                          strategy and military requirements. The British government, as a nuclear power, had to have the means to defend itself and, if necessary, retaliate. The prospect of developing derivatives of the
                          Wellington or Lancaster, as originally planned, was now as outmoded as the biplane in the Second World War.
                          In January 1947 the Air Ministry issued a specification based on an operational requirement drawn up in 1946 for an aircraft that could fly fast enough, high enough and far enough to deliver an ‘A’
                          bomb or conventional weapons on Moscow. The frightening age of the nuclear deterrent and Britain’s
                          Vbomber force had dawned.
                          Within a ten-year span Britain produced five new bombers with four different engines to meet the
                          requirement.
                          Today it is quite inconceivable to imagine this country producing just one new military
                          aircraft within the same period. Even more remarkably, the first, the Valiant, designed at Weybridge
                          by George Edwards and the Vickers team, made its maiden flight right on schedule just twenty-seven
                          months from authorisation, and the first production aircraft was delivered to the RAF right on time,
                          less than four years after receiving a contract. It is not surprising that Edwards considers the Valiant his hardest but ‘favourite aeroplane’.
                          http://www.freebookspot.es/Comments....ment_ID=562877

                          I might also suggest perusing the following page from "Flightglobal", which details British aircraft engines in production in 1956.

                          A good number are piston engines, but the majority are gas turbine engines so that includes pure jet and turboshaft engines.

                          It is quite a large list, and does not suggest any curtailment by government.

                          https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarch...0-%201250.html

                          I tried to copy it, but the reproduction is too small ,so it is up to others to go to the source directly.
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by At ease; 22 Feb 16, 23:50.
                          "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
                          "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

                          "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
                          — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Good research there Marmat. My first ship was a SinkEx victim but that's much better than razorblades. We can't keep everything mate.
                            Skip

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Is there an echo in here?

                              Originally posted by Chukka View Post


                              Anyone know the story here? The second oldest ship in the fleet after HMS Victory scuttled in 1949. Seems like a terrible waste.
                              n/t
                              "I am Groot"
                              - Groot

                              Comment

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