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R-60 M

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  • R-60 M

    how important was the R-60M in the context of the 80s cold war ?

    it seems like it was available in large quantities then and mig-23 carried 4 of them at a time.

    How much was it supposed to help the mig-23 in their slash and dash tactics they were supposed to have employed against modern western fighters ? ( see soviet mig-23 manual)

    was its smaller maximum range a significant handicap in dogfights ? and was its lower minimum engagement range an advantage ?

  • #2
    What is thee R-60 M?

    Comment


    • #3
      Google Aphid A.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • #4
        Isn't the Aphid a Russian copy of the Sidewinder Missile?

        Comment


        • #5
          A copy does not always work as well as the original. Besides, the first Sidewinders could be spoofed and out maneuvered. Still at close range they were much better than Falcons.

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

          Comment


          • #6
            Actually the Russian K-13 (NATO AA-2 Atoll) was a copy of the original AIM-9.

            Comment


            • #7
              Actually the Russian K-13 (NATO AA-2 Atoll) was a copy of the original AIM-9.
              Is it true that a copy of the AIM-9B front end got to the Soviets after being caught in the aft end of a MiG-15 over the Taiwan Straits?
              History is not tragedy; to understand historical reality, it is sometimes better to not know the end of the story.

              Pierre Vidal-Naquet

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bluenose View Post
                Is it true that a copy of the AIM-9B front end got to the Soviets after being caught in the aft end of a MiG-15 over the Taiwan Straits?
                Well before my time. However:

                The K-13 is an air to air missile of Soviet origin. It was a direct copy of the US AIM-9B Sidewinder air to air missile and introduced in Soviet service in the early 1960's. In the West the K-13 is better known by its NATO reporting name AA-2 Atoll. The USSR came into possession of an AIM-9B which was lodged in the tail of a Chinese MiG-17 but did not explode.
                http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...A-2+Atoll.html

                I cannot confirm the story. But it is repeated from a respected source:



                This is the Atoll, an air-to-air missile of the former Soviet Union. Atoll is the NATO code name for the Soviet K-13, a copy of the U.S. Sidewinder air-to-air, heat-seeking missile. Atoll originated in 1958, when a Sidewinder fired from a Taiwanese F-86 fighter in the Taiwan Strait lodged in an aircraft of the People's Republic of China but did not detonate.

                China recovered the missile intact and turned it over to the Soviet Union, which copied the design, mass-produced the missile, and exported Atolls to its client states. The Atoll has the same basic dimensions as the Sidewinder but has been modified over the years and is still in use. This object was donated to the Smithsonian in 1993 by the U.S. Air Force.
                https://airandspace.si.edu/collectio...ated-k-13-aa-2

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                • #9
                  Well, let's see.

                  This missile has a small fragmentation or expanding rod warhead of about 3 to 3.5 kg (7 to 8 lbs). It has a "book" range of about 5 miles but realistically and effectively, it's limited to about 2 to 3.
                  It uses liquid nitrogen to cool the seeker, but is for all intents a stern chase missile. Not uncommon for the period. Speed is about Mach 2.7.

                  On the whole, it looks like it's US equivalent would be the AIM 4D missile.

                  In Syrian on Israeli aerial combat it's scored a few kills, but on the whole I'd say that it is no better than the AIM 4D and that missile wasn't all that good.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Well, let's see.

                    This missile has a small fragmentation or expanding rod warhead of about 3 to 3.5 kg (7 to 8 lbs). It has a "book" range of about 5 miles but realistically and effectively, it's limited to about 2 to 3.
                    It uses liquid nitrogen to cool the seeker, but is for all intents a stern chase missile. Not uncommon for the period. Speed is about Mach 2.7.

                    On the whole, it looks like it's US equivalent would be the AIM 4D missile.

                    In Syrian on Israeli aerial combat it's scored a few kills, but on the whole I'd say that it is no better than the AIM 4D and that missile wasn't all that good.
                    Thanks ,
                    the stern chase missile was the basic R-60

                    was the R-60M the same ? Ive read it had better all-aspect capability
                    Last edited by nastle; 08 Dec 17, 12:37.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nastle View Post
                      Thanks ,
                      the stern chase missile was the basic R-60

                      was the R-60M the same ? Ive read it had better all-aspect capability
                      From what I've read on it, it had some limited capacity to do all-aspect, but it wasn't great at it. Of course, at that time (the 70's / 80's) few IR AAM's really could do all-aspect and even those were very prone to countermeasures.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        From what I've read on it, it had some limited capacity to do all-aspect, but it wasn't great at it. Of course, at that time (the 70's / 80's) few IR AAM's really could do all-aspect and even those were very prone to countermeasures.
                        True
                        Were fighters in the 80s routiinely equipped with counter measures ?
                        I'm thinking like F4 and F16s of turkey norway Japan etc the fighters most likely dealing with Soviet intruders

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nastle View Post
                          True
                          Were fighters in the 80s routiinely equipped with counter measures ?
                          I'm thinking like F4 and F16s of turkey norway Japan etc the fighters most likely dealing with Soviet intruders
                          Most Western fighters had chaff and flares available. Countries using Warsaw Pact export equipment? Probably not. Most of the time they were the stripper version with minimal electronics on them.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            AA-11 Archer was the one that shocked the West with its lethality and spawned the Western clones, AIM9X etc.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by eddie3rar View Post
                              AA-11 Archer was the one that shocked the West with its lethality and spawned the Western clones, AIM9X etc.
                              it was no better than late model sidewinder
                              and I wonder how many were available by 1990 when cold war ended ?
                              apparently 2 per every 4th gen fighter would put stocks at a mere 2600, given there were 800 mig-29 and 400 su-27 in service by 1990
                              but thats my guess , would be interesting to see if there are any real statistics on its production till 1990 out there

                              so the bulk of soviet fighters still relied on R-60M until the cold war

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