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  • #46
    I agree. IMHO, either the smaller NATO states need to come together and jointly run an air force, allowing them combined to put together the logistical capabilities and ancillaries, or they need to accept a very small but generally capable air force.

    Option 1: Pooling together, countries conspire to provide a combined Air Force that includes multi-role fighters, AWACs, Transport, and refueling missions.

    Option 2: Buy a low end AWACs bird, like an E2, and also buy a cargo bird that can pull double duty as refueling, like the KC130.

    For a country to basically demand that a contractor provide them with IFR capabilities is IMHO kind of cheesy.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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    • #47
      It might be hard for the various small countries to agree on who gets what. I remember when NATO had AWACS.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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      • #48
        The NATO AWACs are under some kind of sharing-scheme already iirc. So is heavy airlift capabilities.

        That's one thing Sweden so far has foregone to do for itself — it's also part of the NATO heavy-airlift thing. (Sweden does do airborne radar for itself (the Eyrie Eye and Global Eye systems), and air-refueling, precisely using its C-130 "Herkules" machines for it.)

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        • #49
          It's clearly a buyer's market right now. There are too many companies pushing their machines, so now they have to offer very attractive deals, and not only on price, but all kinds of supplemental services it seems.
          Indeed; through-life support and training is nothing new but the IP aspect is. OEMs now have to invest in target markets to a far higher degree and sacrifice much more. As I mentioned, see Brazil and the proposed Indian light fighter programmes with complete ToT and production in-country. The US retains the advantage of critical mass and support guarantee that others find it hard to match, though Sweden is better than most.

          SAAB just withdrew its bid for the Belgian procurement of new fighters. It seems the Belgians have made it a condition that IF you get to sell them these fighters, you are also contractually obliged to service them anywhere in the world, should Belgium chose to go to war there — including handling what air-refueling the Belgian air-force might need.
          You have to provide through-life support and that includes [overseas] servicing, but that is so common now as to be irrelevant. I suspect Saab feel the F-35 will win and therefore it is not worth the investment.

          The NATO AWACs are under some kind of sharing-scheme already iirc. So is heavy airlift capabilities.
          True, but in the case of AWACs they still belong to particular air forces; the sharing is the availability and the recompense. They are registered to a particular operator. It has been suggested that the Nordics or Baltics (and GCC) undertake something similar for various capabilities.
          History is not tragedy; to understand historical reality, it is sometimes better to not know the end of the story.

          Pierre Vidal-Naquet

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Bluenose View Post
            True, but in the case of AWACs they still belong to particular air forces; the sharing is the availability and the recompense. They are registered to a particular operator. It has been suggested that the Nordics or Baltics (and GCC) undertake something similar for various capabilities.
            Sweden does for itself in that respect. Defense cooperation with Finland would make it available to the Finns as well.

            Denmark, Norway and the Baltic states are NATO so that's a different kettle of fish. Though if they want an affordable airborne radar system, Sweden is selling.

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            • #51
              Sweden does for itself in that respect. Defense cooperation with Finland would make it available to the Finns as well.
              Expensive to buy and operate; sharing with neighbours would help ameliorate the financials and provide mutually useful benefits to all.

              Denmark, Norway and the Baltic states are NATO so that's a different kettle of fish.
              But there is the potential to cooperate and co-use aircraft given the similarities of local concern. Indeed, the Erieye and GlobalEye are ideally suited for non-deploying, sophisticated states concerned primarily with multi-level security concerns, which is much of North / East Europe

              Though if they want an affordable airborne radar system, Sweden is selling.
              The GlobalEye costs a small fortune, as do all of these things. You are looking at $300-400m each (you probably need 3 to be useful) and that does not cover the long-term running or support infrastructure.
              History is not tragedy; to understand historical reality, it is sometimes better to not know the end of the story.

              Pierre Vidal-Naquet

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              • #52
                Bump: Small update re the Finnish deal.

                The offers seem to be in now, and apparently some of the things discussed here two-three years ago seem to be materializing.

                MacDonnel-Douglas is pumping seriously for its Super Hornet, and uncharacteristically has thrown in a couple of Growler dedicated electronic warfare aircraft, to sweeten the deal. That's so far not something they have done for every customer.

                SAAB however has now responded, and included two GlobalEey airborne radar aircraft and systems in their Gripe E/F offer – complementary and free of charge with the 64 fighters it hopes to offer Finland.
                https://www.airforce-technology.com/...ghter-replace/

                It has apparently already generated some discussion on the Finnish side (not all apparently reasonable):
                https://corporalfrisk.com/2019/06/17...-finnish-aewc/
                "Corpral Frisk" tends to know what he's talking about however.

                In competition are:
                Gripen E/F, Super Hornet, Raphale, Typhoon and F-35
                https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...-fighter-race/

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                  They didn't?
                  They should have! Airworthy flying Buffalos are worth a fortune on the warbirds market- if you can find one....I recall an offer of over six million ten years ago...

                  Parts are a concern, as Brewster went back to its' roots.....

                  The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                  • #54
                    Globaleye is a pretty good deal, I think SAAB will be hoping they will pay for a third once the Finnish airforce realise what capabilities it gives them.
                    Last edited by Achtung Baby; 08 Jul 19, 06:00.
                    "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                    Ernest Hemingway.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
                      Globaleye is a pretty good deal, I think SAAB will be hoping they will pay for a third once the Finish airforce realise what capabilities it gives them.
                      Going Swedish also improves the Finnish chances – if god forbid there would be a shooting war – of using not just Swedish airspace for some more strategic depth, but also Swedish assets.

                      If Sweden and Finland operate the same radar and fighter system it should be fairly seamless for Swedish airborne radar to feed the Finnish fighters intel. It's questionable of Sweden even need to be in the actual war. It might do this on the sly even.

                      Pooled like this Sweden+Finland in wartime conditions would jointly be operating 8 aircraft with these abilities.

                      The military coordination and cooperation is official program since 2014 anyway:
                      https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje...ce-cooperation

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                      • #56
                        Well if they decide to have growlers, hope they’re watching what happened to one of Australia’s brand new ones. Just burst into flames.

                        https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-...gines/11323860
                        "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                        Ernest Hemingway.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
                          Well if they decide to have growlers, hope they’re watching what happened to one of Australia’s brand new ones. Just burst into flames.

                          https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-...gines/11323860
                          And,what's more, no compensation appears to be forthcoming.
                          "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                          Samuel Johnson.

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                          • #58
                            It is going to be rather interesting to see which one they will pick - there was a nice show of F-35s, Eurofighters, Rafeles and Gripens in the last airshow in Turku, Finland (even if F-35s didn't do show flights and Rafale 'show' was abysmal). Finnish Air Force is on the other hand going through bit of a crisis at the moment when their misuse of 'holiday cabin' and severely mixing up training and leisure came to bit the air force brass quite hard in their behinds.

                            http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/...e-offence.html
                            https://newsnowfinland.fi/domestic/n...aining-scandal

                            Essentially air force brass have had a habit on calling their close contacts (business, municipal etc.) for 'voluntary rehearsal training' - which essentially consisted mainly on boozing in the cabin in Lapland owned by a foundation formed by Air Force pilots. The equipment they bought for the events included disco balls and similar. Transport to the event was done on Air Force aircraft and military bus - which made a pit stop at the local booze store before continuing for the 'exercise'. And that mess is still unraveling.
                            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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                            • #59
                              Planes at the Turku airshow in Finland June 16.



                              "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                              Ernest Hemingway.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                It is going to be rather interesting to see which one they will pick - there was a nice show of F-35s, Eurofighters, Rafeles and Gripens in the last airshow in Turku, Finland (even if F-35s didn't do show flights and Rafale 'show' was abysmal). Finnish Air Force is on the other hand going through bit of a crisis at the moment when their misuse of 'holiday cabin' and severely mixing up training and leisure came to bit the air force brass quite hard in their behinds.

                                http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/...e-offence.html
                                https://newsnowfinland.fi/domestic/n...aining-scandal

                                Essentially air force brass have had a habit on calling their close contacts (business, municipal etc.) for 'voluntary rehearsal training' - which essentially consisted mainly on boozing in the cabin in Lapland owned by a foundation formed by Air Force pilots. The equipment they bought for the events included disco balls and similar. Transport to the event was done on Air Force aircraft and military bus - which made a pit stop at the local booze store before continuing for the 'exercise'. And that mess is still unraveling.
                                Sounds like the fellows in Finland are adhering to "The Three B's of Lobbying: Broads, Booze, and Bucks."

                                Leonard Glenn Francis was legendary on the high seas for his charm and his appetite for excess. For years, the Singapore-based businessman had showered [US] Navy officers with gifts, epicurean dinners, prostitutes and, if necessary, cash bribes so they would look the other way while he swindled the [US] Navy to refuel and resupply its ships.

                                "The man who seduced the 7th Fleet," by Craig Whitlock, Washington Post, 27 May 2016
                                The first volume of Caro's Years of Lyndon Johnson detailed the Three B's at work in the Texas state legislature in the first decades of the 20th century, 'cept there he called 'em "blondes, beefsteaks, and bribes."
                                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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