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  • #31
    Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
    Been kicking this one around for a while, so first issue would be;
    1) Are we talking about a hunker-down and defend homestead/home-turf; perimeter scenario; = repel the hordes of "city mobs" invaders ??? ...
    OR
    2) Equip for a "bug-out" and go someplace more remote and defensible sort of scenario ... ???
    OR
    3) a mix of both above, Hold as long as possible with "bug-out" an eventual game plan .... ???
    OR
    4) Hold our Turf with vision of re-establish and re-build after a TEOTEAWKI = The End Of The Earth As We Know It scenario, situation ...
    OR
    5) Other ...

    Ask only because there might be some variation on what we should have and need to pack out on our backs versus what we can have, need, use to "hold in place".

    Sort of a separate topic for later discussion, I'll carry on with some other basic considerations ...
    It would depend on where you are. For rural folk with any stockpile of food and water, it may make more sense to hunker-down, but those in urban and suburban areas may decide that it's safer to get out of town. It could definitely be either scenario or both either hunkering down initially and then bugging out or bugging out and hunkering down. Whatever plans you have after you survive are your own, however, those plans may dictate what kind of weapons you choose. Logistically, you would have to decide what is the most feasible situation given the supplies you have versus what you need to get. Do you risk leaving the safety of your fortress but dwindling supplies and try and find a better position or do you wait for the initial chaos to hopefully passover and then go out scavenging whats left while you try to find a better position? Its a tough decision and a lot may depend on the abilities of your crew and the how bad it could get where you are.
    The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

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    • #32
      Wow, G David Bock has really taken the ball with this one and ran with it, going into every bit of kit. I like your ideas especially things like shotgun barrel changing for indoor use, drones, and homemade RPGs. Its the kind of innovation you see in places affected by civil war like the Arab Spring in Libya, and Syria where necessity is the mother of invention, using materials available to increase the lethality of your squad, deterring others from messing with you but also could draw others seeking to gain your devices for themselves. It will require a degree of security and secrecy to maintain your edge over less skilled outfits.

      You're correct that the military does not like to keep weapons and ammo stored near each other, and for good reason. However, choosing a military issued caliber for your weapons does make sense if you happen to come upon any military-issued weapons and ammo, likely some poor Guardsman acting as riot control shot by angry crowds wanting to hoard anything worth hoarding. Like your shotgun barrel options, the AR platform can also changed to suit different calibers. That could be an important factor when looking at the utility of each person's weapon in the near and long term. A super compact lightweight tacticool SBR AR15 is awesome in CQB needed to fight through the supermarket aisles, but how effective will it be later on the homestead trying to take down elk? Luckily, you can build two guns on the same platform to do both and would only require a few changes. You could stash several larger caliber uppers with barrels at base for hunting duty, or carry them on scavenging/hunting/gathering patrols, although a dedicated marksman with a large caliber AR preassembled and ready to shoot makes more sense. If you have a lot of 7.62 laying around though, it may be advantageous to acquire AR-10s for primary weapons as its not as simple as doing a barrel, bolt, and mag change on an AR-15.

      Only barrel change
      .300 HAM’R
      .300 Blackout

      Barrel and bolt change
      .458 SOCOM
      .50 Beowulf

      Barrel, bolt, and mags change
      6.8 SPC
      6.5 Grendel
      The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

      Comment


      • #33
        One problem could well be living close to major urban areas. I have two Grandsons living in Metro Houston. They could get trapped in there if the manure hits the fan. The older one has a shotgun, but I doubt he has much ammo. His Girlfriend may talk him out of leaving early. Number two Grandson has his shotgun here and maybe his 22. I have some guns and ammo I keep here. I don't think it is enough and I doubt the local WalMart keeps much on hand.

        One caliber not brought up yet is 22 Magnum. I have a fine 22 Magnum with a scope and a bipod. I don't have a lot of ammo for it. I think I can find my earplugs.

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
          Main weapon; long-gun/rifle;

          Assuming from OP there is time to acquire and/or train in advance, when it comes to the main weapon for each member, a rifle is ideal, and semi-auto types would be ideal as well. Quick load with magazines and basic to operate in a point and shoot, with minimum distraction of working a bolt or lever for each round to be fired. Easier to keep eye and sights on target, especially if needing to fire more than one shot in quick succession.

          Again, keeping ammo types to a minimum and common (interchangeable among team members) I'd go with either 5.56mm/.223 and/or 7.62/.308.

          My preference would be most have some version of an AR 'clone', for simplicity, easy , and commonality; and in the 5,56mm/.223 ammo size.

          A smaller number would have something like the Springfield M1A (civilian version of the M14) in (NATO) 7.62mm/.308 for a weapon witha bit more hitting power, penetration, and range.

          M1A™ Series Rifles - Springfield Armory

          Springfield Armory M1A - Wikipedia

          If going with three person fire team structure, than two with the AR and one with the M1A.

          Scopes optional, maybe just a few and those for your sharpshooter/sniper members.
          Why would you choose M1A over SR-25, M&P10, or other AR-type in 7.62/.308?

          You won't gain much on parts commonality, but you do gain a BUNCH on manual of arms/manipulation. I admit to being biased toward the AR, because I've used it the most, but I've always found the M1 to be poor ergonomically. YMMV.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 82redleg View Post

            Why would you choose M1A over SR-25, M&P10, or other AR-type in 7.62/.308?

            You won't gain much on parts commonality, but you do gain a BUNCH on manual of arms/manipulation. I admit to being biased toward the AR, because I've used it the most, but I've always found the M1 to be poor ergonomically. YMMV.
            Mainly because my impression was slightly greater range with the M1A.
            The others I have no familiarity with, nor have used, so you may have to educate me, and other readers.
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
            “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

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            • #36
              I love my M1A! It shoots farther than I can see. Around here there is not so much clear space, though. Yes, I do also have an AR 15. I can love both of them!

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                Stout metal tubes, battery and wire trigger to ignite,= home-made "panzer faust" or mortar ???

                Just some food for thought maybe.
                We used to do this in the 70's and use it like a bazooka. It was not easy to hit anything at range, but it was cool when you did.

                “Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” -- Albert Einstein

                The US Constitution doesn't need to be rewritten it needs to be reread

                Comment


                • #38
                  AR15s for rifleman, .270 to 30-06 for sniping, 9mm pistols or .357 Magnum revolvers, bowie knife or bayonets, 12 ga, pump or auto or AR style 12 ga (like the Panzer arms guns). 22 semi-auto for backups (you can store a lot of .22 ammo and like mentioned above it is lethal). Everyone around here is buying ammo, the guns are already here..

                  “Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” -- Albert Einstein

                  The US Constitution doesn't need to be rewritten it needs to be reread

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                    Mainly because my impression was slightly greater range with the M1A.
                    The others I have no familiarity with, nor have used, so you may have to educate me, and other readers.
                    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knig..._Company_SR-25

                    https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...in-optic-ready

                    They are both AR platforms in 7.62/.308, and possibly other calibers. There are others, too, but these are the two that I think are most common.

                    They share some parts commonality with an AR-15, but the real benefit is the same manual of arms/weapon manipulation muscle memory. If a person armed with an AR pick some up an M1A, he has to use different patterns of movement to run the gun. With an SR-25, those patterns are the same because the controls are all in the same place and work in the same manner.

                    Range is a factor of barrel length and cartridge (powder, bullet weight/form, etc)- you won't see a significant difference in system accuracy between an M1A and an SR-25, if those two things are constant.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 82redleg View Post

                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knig..._Company_SR-25

                      https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...in-optic-ready

                      They are both AR platforms in 7.62/.308, and possibly other calibers. There are others, too, but these are the two that I think are most common.

                      They share some parts commonality with an AR-15, but the real benefit is the same manual of arms/weapon manipulation muscle memory. If a person armed with an AR pick some up an M1A, he has to use different patterns of movement to run the gun. With an SR-25, those patterns are the same because the controls are all in the same place and work in the same manner.

                      Range is a factor of barrel length and cartridge (powder, bullet weight/form, etc)- you won't see a significant difference in system accuracy between an M1A and an SR-25, if those two things are constant.
                      Thanks.
                      You make some good points. Guess I'd change to the SR-25 in place of the M1A.
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                      “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I have an AR10 (7.62 NATO\.308) and it is an awesome gun. It can shoot accurately further than I can see. I can hit targets at 300+ yards easy. My Galil (5.56\.223) is accurate to about 250-300 yards, but it can take a beating and still run smoothly and it can shoot brass or steel cartridges equally as well.

                        “Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” -- Albert Einstein

                        The US Constitution doesn't need to be rewritten it needs to be reread

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I'd use a SDMR version for the "sniper" on the team. He can reach out to 600yds with the 77gr OTM. That's all you really need. Think of it this way--at 600yds (or even 400), the bad guy doesn't even know you exist unless you want him to. In a SHTF situation, the fewer firefights you're in, the longer you stay alive.

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                          • #43
                            Alternative Scenario - The America(s) Nomad

                            Since it seems that the consensus is a squad-based on the AR-15 and/or AR-10 platforms, I will now propose a different scenario that is not hunkering down where you are, since staying static invites problems which may negate the advantage of having a fortified position. For instance, there will be a need for supplies for an armed fireteam/squad/platoon and also likely, their families. Water, food, clothing, ammo, construction materials, farming equipment, etc will need to be hoarded without bringing attention to you. A highly defended position invites lookie-loos following your supply runs or who may happen to pass by your position and wonder whether you can help them. Offering them help or not, they will become a liability as they now have a location on you and when they leave, may likely tell others. Other groups may not be so kind to you if they know you have a cache of weapons and supplies. Opposing groups may come upon your position with more men and weaponry to remove you of anything valuable and may kill you, all fighting aged men, or everyone. So instead of finding out what the former gang or cult, now turned vigilante militia with much more armed personnel than you and possibly less care for the lives of their people, you decide to flee.

                            Humans have been nomads and the advantages of not being tied to one place, especially one in chaos, allows you to keep your distance from conflict and find new places to camp away from danger. Encampments are made with the intention of possibly having to move with little notice and therefore procedures are in place for packing up and leaving quickly. Each move reinforces this ability to efficiently get ready to move. It also trains habits to carry only what you need and only unpack what you need. Your unit becomes better at figuring out what is absolutely necessary so they aren't slowed down carrying useless things. Weather and climate are big factors and camping in the Northern Hemisphere where it freezes may not be sustainable. So you follow the sun south. You could load up in a convoy of reliable offroad vehicles or a flotilla of yachts following a more Gulf of Mexico/Caribbean/Atlantic route or a Gulf of California/Pacific route.

                            pan-am-highway-map-1.jpg

                            DgV2Og3XkAAHh-c.jpg
                            Let's Go Places!

                            nordhavn-n40.jpg
                            Alternatively, the sea might be the life for you, if your boat can cross it!

                            Most likely, governmental structures south of the US border are in even more dire straights than north of it. Some governments in Central America are barely functioning today. This means it can be a perilous journey down to Panama and beyond. Yet with mobility and intel, you can bypass trouble areas. A lot of posturing, bluffing, trading, bribing, and negotiating will be required to keep seemingly-friendly forces from deciding to no longer be friends.

                            Skirmishes, ambushes, and firefights will most likely occur so you may run into problems with spare parts for American AR platform weapons in countries where ARs are the minority. Below is a list of weapons that aren't AR-based which are either in active use by these country's militaries or national police forces in significant numbers (>1000 rifles), or are in storage in significant numbers. I only included 5.56 or 7.62 selective-fire semi-auto rifles, including a variety of 7.62x39mm rifles.

                            87992ca19b704e8a9f218f7d133ab4c0_8.jpg
                            This is a sample of weapons you might encounter, these ones deep in the Colombian jungle carried by the FARC. Do you keep your ARs and hope you find some serviceable M16s and M4s with the needed parts or do you switch to a FN, HK, SIG, or AK platform? Or maybe you go the Mini-14/M-14 route?
                            Antigua and Barbuda L1A1 (SLR)
                            Argentina FN FAL
                            HK G3
                            HK33
                            Steyr AUG
                            FARA 83
                            SIG SG 550
                            Beretta ARX160
                            IWI ACE
                            CZ 805 BREN
                            SIG516
                            Bahamas L1A1 (SLR)
                            Belize FN FAL
                            L1A1 (SLR)
                            Bolivia SKS
                            FN FAL
                            HK G3
                            SG 510-4
                            Brazil FN FAL
                            Type 56
                            HK33
                            Mini-14
                            HK G41
                            HK G36
                            IMBEL MD
                            IMBEL MD97
                            IWI Tavor
                            IMBEL IA2
                            Chile AK-47
                            SG 510-4
                            HK G3
                            AKM
                            IMI Galil
                            SG 540
                            IWI ACE
                            FN SCAR
                            Colombia M14
                            HK G3
                            IMI Galil
                            IWI ACE
                            IWI Tavor
                            Galil Córdova
                            Costa Rica M14
                            FN FAL
                            IMI Galil
                            Cuba SKS
                            Type 58
                            Type 68
                            AKM
                            vz. 58
                            Dominican Republic M14
                            FN FAL
                            HK G3
                            Ecuador M14
                            Type 56
                            HK33
                            Steyr AUG
                            SG 540
                            K2
                            CETME rifle
                            El Salvador FN FAL
                            HK33
                            AK-63
                            Mini-14
                            IMI Galil
                            FN FNC
                            IWI ACE
                            IWI Tavor
                            Guatemala AKM
                            Type 63
                            HK33
                            IMI Galil
                            IWI ACE
                            IWI Tavor
                            Galil Córdova
                            Guyana SKS
                            AK-47
                            FN FAL
                            HK G3
                            Haiti M14
                            HK G3
                            Honduras M14
                            FN FAL
                            HK G3
                            Mini-14
                            IMI Galil
                            Beretta AR70/90
                            IWI ACE
                            IWI Tavor X95
                            Mexico FN FAL
                            HK G3
                            FN CAL
                            HK33
                            K2
                            Beretta ARX160
                            FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
                            CZ 805 BREN
                            Nicaragua AK-47
                            Type 58
                            AKM
                            Type 68
                            PM md. 63
                            AK-63
                            IMI Galil
                            SG 540
                            Panama HK G3
                            AKM
                            AMD-65
                            IMI Galil
                            AK-103
                            IWI ACE
                            Paraguay FN FAL
                            HK G3
                            SG 540
                            Beretta AR70/90
                            Peru AK-47
                            FN FAL
                            Type 68
                            AKM
                            HK33
                            IMI Galil
                            K2
                            SAR 21
                            FN F2000
                            Zastava M21
                            IWI ACE
                            IWI Tavor
                            FN SCAR
                            Saint Vincent and the Grenadines FN FAL
                            Suriname AK-47
                            FN FAL
                            AKM
                            Trinidad and Tobago L1A1 (SLR)
                            IMI Galil
                            Uruguay FN FAL
                            Steyr AUG
                            AK-101
                            Venezuela M14
                            FN FAL
                            AKM
                            FN FNC
                            SG 550
                            AK-103
                            AK-104
                            The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

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                            • #44
                              I don't see Mexico allowing a bunch of armed Yanqui migrants alone. The Narco Gangs might object as well. The roadnet South from Mexico also gets worse and worse. Grabbing as many Toyota Pickups as you can find would have advantages. I have all the caliber groups above, so I could survive. My worst problem would be getting past the suburbs of Houston and San Antonio.

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
                                Alternative Scenario - The America(s) Nomad

                                Since it seems that the consensus is a squad-based on the AR-15 and/or AR-10 platforms, I will now propose a different scenario that is not hunkering down where you are, since staying static invites problems which may negate the advantage of having a fortified position. For instance, there will be a need for supplies for an armed fireteam/squad/platoon and also likely, their families. Water, food, clothing, ammo, construction materials, farming equipment, etc will need to be hoarded without bringing attention to you. A highly defended position invites lookie-loos following your supply runs or who may happen to pass by your position and wonder whether you can help them. Offering them help or not, they will become a liability as they now have a location on you and when they leave, may likely tell others. Other groups may not be so kind to you if they know you have a cache of weapons and supplies. Opposing groups may come upon your position with more men and weaponry to remove you of anything valuable and may kill you, all fighting aged men, or everyone. So instead of finding out what the former gang or cult, now turned vigilante militia with much more armed personnel than you and possibly less care for the lives of their people, you decide to flee.

                                Humans have been nomads and the advantages of not being tied to one place, especially one in chaos, allows you to keep your distance from conflict and find new places to camp away from danger. Encampments are made with the intention of possibly having to move with little notice and therefore procedures are in place for packing up and leaving quickly. Each move reinforces this ability to efficiently get ready to move. It also trains habits to carry only what you need and only unpack what you need. Your unit becomes better at figuring out what is absolutely necessary so they aren't slowed down carrying useless things. Weather and climate are big factors and camping in the Northern Hemisphere where it freezes may not be sustainable. So you follow the sun south. You could load up in a convoy of reliable offroad vehicles or a flotilla of yachts following a more Gulf of Mexico/Caribbean/Atlantic route or a Gulf of California/Pacific route.
                                Defence of a static position should favour the defender. The attacker does not know the lay of the land and must be prepared to spend inordinate amounts of limited supplies to win the position without knowing if the cost will ever outweigh the profits. So long as the position is a tough nut to crack, assailants will likely move onto other less hardened sites.

                                The idea of a roving band of nomads is a loser to start. They will simply be moving from one fuel location to another. Those sites will be heavily protected/contested. The nomads would need to spend considerable resources in scouting and would unlikely recoup the expense of the exercise in constantly capturing new sources of fuel. The premise might make for a Hollywood movie, but it is silly in the face of reality.
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