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  • #16
    Interesting point on the Afrikaners. They're having to band together due to extinction level policies and gangs running around with the tacit support of the government by its silence.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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    • #17
      For a four-man neighborhood/area security patrol, it's hard to do better than four AR15s, four G19s, and one shotgun for arms.

      Everyone also needs an IFAK, flexcuffs, gloves, safety glasses, multitool, mini light and a cellphone.

      "Shoot for the epaulets, boys! Shoot for the epaulets!" - Daniel Morgan

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      • #18
        I saw this something similar suggested with an A-Team/ODA concept once: two EMTs, two IT guys, two construction guys that could handle explosives, two guys with armorer/gunsmithing skills, etc.
        "Shoot for the epaulets, boys! Shoot for the epaulets!" - Daniel Morgan

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        • #19
          Been kicking this one around for a while, so first issue would be;
          1) Are we talking about a hunker-down and defend homestead/home-turf; perimeter scenario; = repel the hordes of "city mobs" invaders ??? ...
          OR
          2) Equip for a "bug-out" and go someplace more remote and defensible sort of scenario ... ???
          OR
          3) a mix of both above, Hold as long as possible with "bug-out" an eventual game plan .... ???
          OR
          4) Hold our Turf with vision of re-establish and re-build after a TEOTEAWKI = The End Of The Earth As We Know It scenario, situation ...
          OR
          5) Other ...

          Ask only because there might be some variation on what we should have and need to pack out on our backs versus what we can have, need, use to "hold in place".

          Sort of a separate topic for later discussion, I'll carry on with some other basic considerations ...

          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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          • #20
            Before getting further, I'd like to address "squad oranization"/"structure" ...

            I lean strongly towards a concept of a three person* fireteam(FT) since if one of the three takes a hit needing evac, there are two others to help carry such out and/or provide cover fire. Note also that from here on I won't play the gender game so my use of "man" or "men" covers both sexes/genders (biological plumbing). Consider "man"/"men" as gender/sex neutral~ambiguous.

            That established ... I lean towards a Squad structure of four FireTeams(FT) of three men each.

            With a "squad leader" and "assistant squad leader" we have a command and organizational structure where we can employ those four = three man FTs in a number of versatile ways;

            One is the Offensive/Attack; 1-2 FT as a fire support~suppression Base while 3-4 provide a maneuver/assault element.

            On a Defensive basis, we can have 3 FT spread out to hold a first line of Defense, with the fourth as a Reserve/Back-up unit.

            In other scenarios such as Patrol~Advance, we can split into two sub-squads of 2 FT each, working a two lines of advance with each having an FT for fire-support/cover and the other for Maneuver~Move Forward. Classic 'Leap-Frog' technique; and along two axis.

            So, with some considerations to come shortly in other posts; the Squad of 12; divided into four each of 3 men FireTeam(FT) would seem the most workable structure for most scenarios to consider --- IMO of course.
            Last edited by G David Bock; 13 Jul 20, 22:09.
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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            • #21
              Following will be a few to several posts on assorted levels of weapons and equipment to be considered essential to the individual survival as well as the unit/squad; along with further up any organizational/command structure.
              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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              • #22
                PPE(W) = Personal Protective Equipment(Weapons);

                1) At least one(two or more better) very good quality and strong/stout blade weapon = knife.
                Not only does it need to be able to cut cords/ropes and carve other surfaces, but should be useful in personal combat to cut and slash towards an opponent, and maybe help cut/carve food rations, etc. ...
                I'll add here that if your blade weapon can also be the bayonet for your long-gun/rifle, so much the better(ideal)

                2) Personal firearm; handgun/pistol. Shyte can happen suddenly and closely and time might require the use of being able to quick draw and fire a handgun/pistol, so all team members should have one. Could be up to their personal choice, but ammo commonality should apply so try to keep to 9mm(Luger); .357 Magnum/.38special; and/or .45 ACP. ...
                I'll add here that my personal "ideal" would be for most to stick with 9mm Luger ammo types, 'ideally' semi-autos such as Glock types. One drawback with semi-autos is the need to use both hands (usually) to work the slide and chamber the initial round, so revolvers are worth a consideration, especially for those whom may not have good upper body/arm strength.
                How to choose the right GLOCK pistol – The new 2020 Buyer's Guide
                https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shoo...-buyers-guide/

                3) Also have at least 2-3 mags./speed loaders for quick reload as part of your kit.

                EDIT additions as afterthought, partly as doing this late evening when getting distracted fixing dinner and prep for wife to get home from work.
                Last edited by G David Bock; 14 Jul 20, 12:46.
                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                  Before getting further, I'd like to address "squad oranization"/"structure" ...
                  In civilian applications, trying to fill some sort of idealized structure is less important than organizing in a way that employs the people that you have effectively. So you're back to first principles, not the "perfect" structure.

                  6 or less, you operate as one team- you can't really fire and maneuver with this structure. Outside of some relatively rare family situations, most in the US will start like this, until they link up with someone else. Inside of the six, you buddy up, and you have up to three "leaders"- the overall command of the element, and two buddy-pair leaders.

                  At 7 or above, you can go to a squad of two fire teams. At 7, this is two teams of three, with a squad leader, although a squad of 7 is brittle. Most robus, although complicated, would be a squad of 19, or three teams of 6, plus a squad leader. Above 20 (maybe 21, if you have an assistant to the squad leader of some sort who isn't in a team), you're better off to go to three echelons (essentially, adding a "platoon").

                  Regardless of how many you have, from a buddy pair of two, the command structure needs to be clear. 2-3 requires one leader, and operates as a single buddy pair- one leader and the other 1-2 follow him. At 4, you need a second leader- the team leader, and a second buddy-pair leader. This scales, and everyone is part of either a 2 or 3 person buddy pair (yeah, I realize pair is a bit of a misnomer), with those buddy pairs combined as you get larger.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 82redleg View Post

                    In civilian applications, trying to fill some sort of idealized structure is less important than organizing in a way that employs the people that you have effectively. So you're back to first principles, not the "perfect" structure.

                    6 or less, you operate as one team- you can't really fire and maneuver with this structure. Outside of some relatively rare family situations, most in the US will start like this, until they link up with someone else. Inside of the six, you buddy up, and you have up to three "leaders"- the overall command of the element, and two buddy-pair leaders.

                    At 7 or above, you can go to a squad of two fire teams. At 7, this is two teams of three, with a squad leader, although a squad of 7 is brittle. Most robus, although complicated, would be a squad of 19, or three teams of 6, plus a squad leader. Above 20 (maybe 21, if you have an assistant to the squad leader of some sort who isn't in a team), you're better off to go to three echelons (essentially, adding a "platoon").

                    Regardless of how many you have, from a buddy pair of two, the command structure needs to be clear. 2-3 requires one leader, and operates as a single buddy pair- one leader and the other 1-2 follow him. At 4, you need a second leader- the team leader, and a second buddy-pair leader. This scales, and everyone is part of either a 2 or 3 person buddy pair (yeah, I realize pair is a bit of a misnomer), with those buddy pairs combined as you get larger.
                    That's why content of post #19 comes into play. Context of situation along with timeline to "get it together" has a bearing.

                    Is this a "pick-up game" situation where you and squad come together on short notice, 'stuff having hit the fan', now comes scramble time ... ???

                    Or has there been time to get stuff together and organize, days~weeks~months in advance???

                    Given initial premise here from OP is selecting ideal/optimal weapons, I'd assume there also is a bit of advance planning and/or training as well. So there might be opportunity to organize and train in advance of "crisis" happening.

                    One way this might be done if there is a lot of lead time would be to get some paintball gear and have your squad train against someone else's squad.
                    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                    • #25
                      Main weapon; long-gun/rifle;

                      Assuming from OP there is time to acquire and/or train in advance, when it comes to the main weapon for each member, a rifle is ideal, and semi-auto types would be ideal as well. Quick load with magazines and basic to operate in a point and shoot, with minimum distraction of working a bolt or lever for each round to be fired. Easier to keep eye and sights on target, especially if needing to fire more than one shot in quick succession.

                      Again, keeping ammo types to a minimum and common (interchangeable among team members) I'd go with either 5.56mm/.223 and/or 7.62/.308.

                      My preference would be most have some version of an AR 'clone', for simplicity, easy , and commonality; and in the 5,56mm/.223 ammo size.

                      A smaller number would have something like the Springfield M1A (civilian version of the M14) in (NATO) 7.62mm/.308 for a weapon witha bit more hitting power, penetration, and range.

                      M1A™ Series Rifles - Springfield Armory

                      Springfield Armory M1A - Wikipedia

                      If going with three person fire team structure, than two with the AR and one with the M1A.

                      Scopes optional, maybe just a few and those for your sharpshooter/sniper members.
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                      • #26
                        Supplement ~ Support Weapons

                        SHOTGUNS - A couple of these will provide some flexibility in many situations.

                        As mentioned in earlier posts, 00/'buck shot' is handy in putting out the equivalent of nine rounds of 9mm in one blast/shot. With a long barrel (@27") they will stay fairly compact in the 50-100 yard range and with a pump action shotgun that can hold 5-6 rounds, allows a shooter to put quite a mass of lead downstream.

                        Slug rounds come in hand for blasting out door locks, or penetration into vehicles ~ engine blocks. If they don't penetrate body arm they will definitely knock down and give one heck of a bruise.

                        Bird-shot, in say the 7-8 range has a value if one wants to either shoot "nuisance" discouragement towards a crowd, but more notable for taking down any aerial drones that might be snooping about.

                        I'm in favor of 12 gauge calibers. I happen to own Mossburg 500 which came with two barrels, one 27" (bird-skeet) and one 18" (interior use), the change out quick and easy, if cold. If hot from recent use, a bit more challenging. Admittedly, this is one of the "least expensive" shotguns on the market, but fairly functional for this sort of scenario.

                        .22LR

                        I know, many are doing the , but hear me out. I've a Ruger 10/22 which is semi-auto, mag feed and has a decent scope. Can hit fairly accurate from 100-300 yards (tougher further out admittedly). Here's why I'd recommend a couple of these in the squad arsenal;

                        1) .22LR is effective to lethal if all you need to penetrate is light clothing to flesh-n-bone, especially if well placed (like head shot). There are 20+ round mags available so you can change out and fire often enough to almost sound automatic. If you have a mob of ramble coming your way, a mag or two fired into them will cause enough injury and confusion that they likely will disperse and/or "run away". Also, there may be times and targets where a smaller and cheaper round would be ideal.

                        2) .22LR is light weight, a few ounces for a box of 50, and relatively cheap about $5-$10 a box of fifty. With a few 20+ round mags, one isn't too burdened with weight other than packing another weapon. If operating in place, than it offers more "tool" versatility.
                        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                        • #27
                          Essential other gear:

                          Civilian models of 'night vision/low light' opticals(googles) are available. Not everyone in the squad would need these, but a few would be helpful and ideal.

                          Battery re-chargers; both solar panel and hand-crank versions would be useful. At least a couple-few. Obviously have plenty of rechargeable batteries, so charged back-ups are ready to hand, and try to equip with minimum variety of sizes in your equipment/gear.

                          Walkie-talkies - There are quite a few good quality, few mile range, and not too expensive models on the market. One per fireteam in the squad at least. Pick one that have a number of bands/frequencies they can operate on. Also, along with communicating with your own people, consider that the "enemy" might also have such and you may want to listen in on them.

                          Flying Drones - And maybe a laptop or two for viewing the camera images on. A couple-three small and portable ones will be handy, especially for looks around the corner or over the hill. Again, consider extra batteries and rechargeable ones, also the solar or hand-crank re-chargers.

                          Binoculars and/or telescopes - obviously, good views at a distance will be essential. See them before they see you if possible.

                          Usual Kit:
                          This is the obvious of sorts, would hope. Tents/shelters, sleeping bags/blankets, first aid kits, field cooking and water purification gear, rations, changes of clothing, wet(rain) and/or cold weather clothing, two or more canteens for water. Gun cleaning kits. And ...
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                          • #28
                            Weather Channel radio?

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                            • #29
                              Explosives and RPG, etc.

                              Quick and short here, hardly consider myself very knowledgeable, but ...

                              There are books and resources on homemade explosives "out there" (internet, mail-order, etc.) so this might be something to consider and look into.

                              Also, consider model rocketry as a source for engines* to power homemade "Rocket Propelled Grenades". (maybe a stick of dynamite for the warhead?) *and some structural parts/kit.

                              Stout metal tubes, battery and wire trigger to ignite,= home-made "panzer faust" or mortar ???

                              Just some food for thought maybe.

                              One last item here, rather than another post. While armories such as those for National Guard and Reserve units might have weapons there-in, there usually is very little ammo stored for such. Often only a few rounds per person assigned to the unit TO&E. So while you might get your hands on an M-60, likely not very much ammo for it there. Something to keep in mind.

                              Also, if it's a "stuff hitting the fan"~TEOTWAWKI ~ consider getting to such armories before "the other side" does.
                              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                                Weather Channel radio?

                                Pruitt

                                Oh yeah, good one. Maybe full am/fm/shortwave "survival" model.
                                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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