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  • "Is another tank"

    Does anybody know who first came up with the concept that
    t

    The best opponent of the tank is another tank.
    or words to that effect?

    Now please don't mistake me I don't care whether it's right or wrong - I'm already up to my eyeballs in opinions on that - and yes MM I do know better than you how to google but not all human wisdom is there, not by a long chalk. What I need to establish is where it came from. Zaloga suggests Maj. Gen. Jacob Devers, the second head of the Armored Force circa 1943 but I have a book written by US Army tankers in 1932 that not only uses the term but refutes it! So it's been around a lot longer than 1943.
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

  • #2
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
    Does anybody know who first came up with the concept that or words to that effect?

    Now please don't mistake me I don't care whether it's right or wrong - I'm already up to my eyeballs in opinions on that - and yes MM I do know better than you how to google but not all human wisdom is there, not by a long chalk. What I need to establish is where it came from. Zaloga suggests Maj. Gen. Jacob Devers, the second head of the Armored Force circa 1943 but I have a book written by US Army tankers in 1932 that not only uses the term but refutes it! So it's been around a lot longer than 1943.
    Ernest D Swinton, Eyewitness p30. He was the bloke who actually developed the tank, but this quote was also 1932.
    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
      Does anybody know who first came up with the concept that or words to that effect?

      Now please don't mistake me I don't care whether it's right or wrong - I'm already up to my eyeballs in opinions on that - and yes MM I do know better than you how to google but not all human wisdom is there, not by a long chalk. What I need to establish is where it came from. Zaloga suggests Maj. Gen. Jacob Devers, the second head of the Armored Force circa 1943 but I have a book written by US Army tankers in 1932 that not only uses the term but refutes it! So it's been around a lot longer than 1943.
      What book is that?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

        Ernest D Swinton, Eyewitness p30. He was the bloke who actually developed the tank, but this quote was also 1932.
        Thanks

        But page 30 covers French ambulance trains after the Marne and has nothing about tanks in it

        BTW he didn't develop the tank having been given the heave ho by the Landships committee before the first prototype was designed. He did come up with some designs for articulated armoured vehicles but originally based on the Pedrail system and intended as a form of APC. A version of one of these was built without an armoured body being fitted to see if it could be used to carry a flame thrower. It proved impossible to steer. He also produced a design for an articulated machine gun destroyer with turrets and a track system a little like Little Willy. It was never built - at that time Tritton was still convinced that big wheels were the answer. He made claims to the Commission set up in 1919 to adjudicate on who should get the credit. IIRC he was credited with having had the idea of using tracks but a different system from that actually used - but that was it. The honours went to Tritton and Wilson

        His main claim to fame should be that he first introduced the British Army to mechanised road transport well before WW1
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

          What book is that?
          The Fighting Tanks Jones Rarey & Icks
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

            Ernest D Swinton, Eyewitness p30. He was the bloke who actually developed the tank, but this quote was also 1932.
            Can find no reference to any phrase approaching the quote. anywhere in the book

            The Devil's Charriots gives a good view of Swinton's actual contribution to development which was nowhere near as comprehensive as he claimed.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post

              Can find no reference to any phrase approaching the quote. anywhere in the book

              The Devil's Charriots gives a good view of Swinton's actual contribution to development which was nowhere near as comprehensive as he claimed.
              Took the reference from here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a197691.pdf
              Apologies if wrong.
              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

              Comment


              • #8
                In Jones, Rarey & Hicks, they state this on pg 257 thusly:

                In considering the problem of antitank defense, perhaps the first thought that occurs is, "What is the best means for accomplishing the purpose?" The second thought, suggested by articles read, may be, "The best antitank weapon is the tank." This idea has been expressed many times in these words and in others...
                This means they were not the originators of that idea, but rather it is something they read elsewhere. But, without an end note, and their bibliography being imprecise enough that I can't begin to figure out what "articles read" they found it in, there's no way of knowing where they got it from.
                On the other hand, it had to be stated well before 1933 when The Fighting Tanks was published.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  In Jones, Rarey & Hicks, they state this on pg 257 thusly:



                  This means they were not the originators of that idea, but rather it is something they read elsewhere. But, without an end note, and their bibliography being imprecise enough that I can't begin to figure out what "articles read" they found it in, there's no way of knowing where they got it from.
                  On the other hand, it had to be stated well before 1933 when The Fighting Tanks was published.
                  Amazing - I never said they did originate it - I'm trying to find out who did hence my OP which you don't seem to have understood- duh!
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                    Took the reference from here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a197691.pdf
                    Apologies if wrong.
                    All I get is Site cannot be reached. -what is it?
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                      All I get is Site cannot be reached. -what is it?
                      Site works for me...DUH...

                      Maybe it would work for you if you spent less time insulting everyone and more time working the problem.

                      Meanwhile, to quote you:
                      Can find no reference to any phrase approaching the quote.
                      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                      • #12

                        Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                        All I get is Site cannot be reached. -what is it?

                        LESSONS LEARNED FROM 20TH CENTURY TANK WARFARE: DOES

                        A COMMON THREAD OF LESSONS EXIST?

                        A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U.S. Army

                        Command and General Staff College In partial

                        fulfillment of the requirements for the

                        by

                        MATTHEW L. SMITH, MAJ, USA

                        B.S., United States Military Academy, 1976
                        The exact quote seems to be "the best defense against a tank is another tank" on pag. 31, footnoted :

                        54. Ernest D. Swinton, E (London: Hodder and Stoughton p
                        Limited, 1932), p.30.

                        Among other general maxims like :

                        The employment of smoke is more important than potent shell. It is better to blind anti-tank gunners than to disrupt them.
                        Last edited by Snowygerry; 18 Jun 19, 05:49.
                        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                          All I get is Site cannot be reached. -what is it?
                          I suggest a computer server with a personal grudge...
                          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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