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Zeroing a rifle, question

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  • #16
    Here's the article on the Chey Tac and the pssage onthe ability to retain zero after being assemble and disassembled multiple times (page 6). It struck me as remarkable because of the extreme ranges the rifle is capable of engaging into the thousands of yards. A hell of a gun apparently.

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...7OPANyvw&pli=1

    The INTERVENTION™ repeats its different zeros extremely well. The system has been repeatedly disassembled and reassembled with no change in zero. This includes removal of the barrel and reinstallation, removing and reinstalling the optics, and removing and reinstalling the suppressor.

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    • #17
      A few points...
      1. Nichols is correct about the difference between 200yd hunting repeatability and 800yd sniping repeatability.
      2. Never believe everything that you read in a paper put out by the manufacturer. They are trying to sell their product.
      3. I'm a more than casual observer of the market and the Chey-tac hasn't really sold. The Barrett, McBros and Accuracy International, among others, have the majority of the market. There must be a reason... The only people that like it are the various "10 Best (fill in the blank)" shows on the History and Discovery Channels.

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      • #18
        Yes Chey tac does not seem to have rep. By coincedence just a few weeks ago I was listening to a couple of rifle affciandos dis that manufactor.


        Originally posted by Nichols View Post
        A rifle like the M-16 series doesn't need to be zeroed too often. The iron sights are attached to the upper receiver and barrel. Windage & elevation adjustments need to be made when engaging targets at various ranges and weather conditions but the zero remains the same.
        Yes, once you did the 25 meter range thing and had the factory zero corrected to the actual zero you could shoot all week with mostly range adjustments.

        However after firing close to two thousand M16 rounds on the KD courses I am still not sure what the correct adjustment is when firing for score in a full blown monsoon before firng every shot I had to blow the water out of the rear sight aperature and then aim quickly before the next raindrop filled it That and the downpour washing the pasted up targets off the cheese cloth carriages

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        • #19
          Originally posted by kuma View Post
          Here's the article on the Chey Tac and the pssage onthe ability to retain zero after being assemble and disassembled multiple times (page 6). It struck me as remarkable because of the extreme ranges the rifle is capable of engaging into the thousands of yards. A hell of a gun apparently.

          https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...7OPANyvw&pli=1

          The INTERVENTION™ repeats its different zeros extremely well. The system has been repeatedly disassembled and reassembled with no change in zero. This includes removal of the barrel and reinstallation, removing and reinstalling the optics, and removing and reinstalling the suppressor.
          "repeats its different zeros extremely well."

          Which is believable but subject to interpretation.
          My worst jump story:
          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
          No lie.

          ~
          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
            I am still not sure what the correct adjustment is when firing for score in a full blown monsoon
            Duh....everyone knows the correct adjustment for that....

            Its called:

            Fix Bayonets!!!!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
              "repeats its different zeros extremely well."

              Which is believable but subject to interpretation.
              Definitely a marketing piece..,the next sentence states "no change in zero.." hard to believe that there would not be even a miniscule difference.

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              • #22
                look at it this way.. 1 MOA @ 100 yards is an angle that can be described as 1 inch divided by 3600 inches..

                so what kind or allowable slop can you have in a precise piece of machinery, when assembled and re assembled that will give you that kind of repeatability..

                one inch divided by 3600 is .0002777 inches of looseness..

                think you can take something apart that has 2 ten thousandths of an inch of windage, without it being tight..??

                temperatureand humidity changes affect something that precise, thats why you know the advertisement is bullsh!t.
                Human beings are the only creatures who are able to behave irrationally in the name of reason.

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                • #23
                  Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg
                  I am still not sure what the correct adjustment is when firing for score in a full blown monsoon
                  cat-this is mouse-fire mission-over
                  Skip

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by kuma View Post
                    Definitely a marketing piece..,the next sentence states "no change in zero.." hard to believe that there would not be even a miniscule difference.
                    Depends on how the weapon is designed. The most critical relationship will be to get the scope on the rifle in the same exact spot and have the shoulder stock adjusted to the shooter as it was when zeroed. If that can be achieved then you should be able to see a pretty consistent zero.

                    What kind of accuracy are you looking for and at what distance?
                    My worst jump story:
                    My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                    As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                    No lie.

                    ~
                    "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                    -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Something else to keep in mind.....

                      There are many people that go overboard with zeroing the rifle. They will show up at a range, bench rest the rifle and shoot 5 or so rounds from various yards every month. They don't do transition drills or weak hand shooting. Just zero.....nothing else. These people will swear that an AR-15 must be zeroed often from a bench rest. Many of them also have the latest and greatest Mall Ninja gear.

                      IMO, zeroing a rifle with any support other than the shooter is a waste. When the shooter gets done with the bench and takes a couple shots....he goes back to zeroing again because he can't get a tight group. Its a nasty circle zero-shoot-zero.....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

                        What kind of accuracy are you looking for and at what distance?
                        Nothing specific though a sniper scenario is what had in mind.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by kuma View Post
                          Nothing specific though a sniper scenario is what had in mind.
                          It may just work for you. I would want to know who makes their barrels. Many options out there.
                          My worst jump story:
                          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                          No lie.

                          ~
                          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            In that article they said that the bullets are machined from solid copper...not cheap. I'd rather have a .300 Win Mag or a .338 Lapua. Anything bigger doesn't come into its own until it's past 600yds and how many civilians have access to a range that long?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I think a lot of ground has already been covered.

                              From my experience, we zeroed our rifles using five round groups at 100m for range qualification. That is adequate for the entire 300m run down. At 300m, with the old M193 round, we have to compensate for bullet drop by aiming at the shoulder level of the Figure 11 targets rather than at the centre of mass. From there onwards, we can aim for centre of mass all the way down from 200m. [Range targets are placed at 300m, 200m, 100m, 50m and 25m.]

                              We were taught back then to never take down the rifle entirely - i.e. removing the upper receiver from the lower receiver by pushing out the front locking lug. The theory is that this might shift the position of the stock relative to the sights.

                              I, however, found that this had no practical difference to the zeroing. My theory is that, since the eye automatically centres the front sight post in the ring rear sight, if you position your cheek in the same relative position, the eye will do the rest. After all, even if you never take down the rifle entirely, it is virtually impossible to ensure that your eye will be in the same precise spot every time you mount the buttstock.

                              Most rifles nowadays have both the front sight and rear sight on the upper receiver. Designs such as the G3 or the HK33 required you to remove the buttstock assembly. Again, there seems to be little impact on the zeroing of the rifle.

                              Having said that, for high-end precision rifles, this may be a different issue, particularly when you dismount the scope. Many manufacturers of clamps or mounts would claim that their product would not affect the zero when you remove and remount the scopes. This might be true with red-dot scopes or reflex scopes at practical ranges, where the minimal difference might not mean a major shift in point of impact, but with a sniper rifle shooting at long ranges using a powerful optic, even a minimal shift might mean a change of point of impact of several inches at long ranges.

                              [EDIT] Some random additional thoughts. A sniper would no doubt want his rifle and optic to hold its zero. No sniper or sharp shooter wants his point of impact to wander.

                              However, there is a difference between the needs of a shooter if he was a civilian bench shooter competing to place the tightest group on a bullseye, a police sniper or a battlefield sniper.

                              A bench shooter will be obsessive about his zero as he has to shoot the tightest group possible closest to the centre of the target.

                              A police sniper will be too as he often may have to take a shot to a small target. However, most police snipers, or even special forces sniper in a hostage rescue scenario, don't have to shoot at very long ranges. I've read the typical engagement range is 75 meters. At such a range, minor deviance in point of impact will not make that great a difference.

                              A long range sniper on the battlefield will, of course, see a much greater deviance the longer the range to the target. However, I wonder if this will make as great a difference as we think. After all, nowadays, snipers operates in pairs: one shooter, one observer. The observer will observe the fall of the shot and call out adjustments to talk the shooter onto the target.

                              So, perhaps, we need to be mindful about not disturbing the zeroing of our weapons too much, but we should also not be too obsessive about it?
                              Last edited by Ogukuo72; 07 Apr 12, 21:27.

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                              • #30
                                I guess the extreme scenario is the probability hitting the target extremely long ranges i.e. 1000-yards up with the first shot from a cold bore of previously zeroed rifle that has just been reassembled.

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