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1341 and THE BATTLE OF SLUYS- the Start of the British Navy?

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  • 1341 and THE BATTLE OF SLUYS- the Start of the British Navy?

    https://www.britishbattles.com/one-h...ttle-of-sluys/

    Edward the third appears to have been the 'Napoleon of England' formidability able to size up a new way of warfare, then apply it with devastating effect.
    the English fleet was essentially cribbed together, with hastily raised Archers platforms fore and aft.English men-at-arms boarding a French ship at the Battle of Sluys on 24th June 1340 in the Hundred Years War
    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

  • #2
    Edward had a strong knowledge of the tides and the frequency of winds that bought his fleet in with the sun at his back, longbow men at the ready.Previously, navies used war galleys

    which were maneuverable , but have a low freeboard and errr, high manpower needs.

    Edward the third, or some canny advisor, realized that a fighting sail fleet carried its own 'high ground'- a simple, but stunning revelation.
    Last edited by marktwain; 30 Apr 19, 11:14.
    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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    • #3
      In 1372, overconfidence caught the new system 'napping' at La Rochelle....
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_La_Rochelle

      Castille was an on and off naval rival of England, until raiding Aztecs for precious metals proved more lucrative than British wool and salt mutton.

      the English cog was outdated
      https://www.brighthubengineering.com...what-is-a-cog/

      by the Castillian Nao- rib rather than clinker built.
      Last edited by marktwain; 01 May 19, 16:58.
      The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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      • #4
        Originally posted by marktwain View Post
        In 1372, overconfidence caught the new system 'napping' at La Rochelle....
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_La_Rochelle

        Castille was an on and off naval rival of England, until raiding Aztecs for precious metals proved more lucrative than British wool and salt mutton.

        the English cog was outdated
        https://www.brighthubengineering.com...what-is-a-cog/

        by the Castillian Nao- rib rather than clinker built.
        The cog was a more suitable merchant vessel for northern waters. It was robuster and generally had a larger hold capacity. It probably had a longer in service life so that replacement/repair costs were spread over a longer period - an important commercial factor. Naval fleets of the time were largely merchantmen hired out to the crown for a particular campaign so if the crown wanted to have more warlike ships available it had to make some inducements to the owners of merchant vessels to purchase/build less commercial ships and this was usually in some sort of financial form like a subsidy or tax relief. The English crown in this period was notorious for being short of cash.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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        • #5
          "Robuster"? Nah, Edward de Tree's use of sail meant he no longer had to yell that at his galley oarsmen.
          "I am Groot"
          - Groot

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Marmat View Post
            "Robuster"? Nah, Edward de Tree's use of sail meant he no longer had to yell that at his galley oarsmen.
            Well known for his politeness, no one forgot who was King....

            IIRC, the clinker build limited the number of masts, as the lack of a robust kneel and rib structure meant that the mainmast had to be braced to multiple areas of the hull. Clinker hulls could flex when beach landing, or shoaling.
            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post

              The cog was a more suitable merchant vessel for northern waters. It was robuster and generally had a larger hold capacity. It probably had a longer in service life so that replacement/repair costs were spread over a longer period - an important commercial factor. Naval fleets of the time were largely merchantmen hired out to the crown for a particular campaign so if the crown wanted to have more warlike ships available it had to make some inducements to the owners of merchant vessels to purchase/build less commercial ships and this was usually in some sort of financial form like a subsidy or tax relief. The English crown in this period was notorious for being short of cash.
              Sorry- my error. the Castilian ships were probably Caravels, or taridas. Lateen sails made them more maneuverable. Taridas could carry more men and supplies, including beer kegs. ( ale for daily rations, Molsons Export for grand victory celebrations.... Guinness to fuel Irish Oarsmen...)
              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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              • #8
                Originally posted by marktwain View Post

                Sorry- my error. the Castilian ships were probably Caravels, or taridas. Lateen sails made them more maneuverable. Taridas could carry more men and supplies, including beer kegs. ( ale for daily rations, Molsons Export for grand victory celebrations.... Guinness to fuel Irish Oarsmen...)
                The Carvel or Caravel dates from a century later. Initially lateen rigged Mediterranean vessels but when ship yards in Brittany started building them in about the 1450s some masts were square rigged, presumably because this suited conditions in Northern waters. The cog continued in parallel use even in the Med, as a merchantman, as they had a longer life, larger holds and required a smaller crew. If your cargo wasn't perishable this overrode the lower speed. Eventually cogs acquired more masts and morphed into square riggers and as ship building technology advanced abandoned clinker construction
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                  The Carvel or Caravel dates from a century later. Initially lateen rigged Mediterranean vessels but when ship yards in Brittany started building them in about the 1450s some masts were square rigged, presumably because this suited conditions in Northern waters. The cog continued in parallel use even in the Med, as a merchantman, as they had a longer life, larger holds and required a smaller crew. If your cargo wasn't perishable this overrode the lower speed. Eventually cogs acquired more masts and morphed into square riggers and as ship building technology advanced abandoned clinker construction
                  Possibly carracks? This site :
                  https://exploration.marinersmuseum.o...t/carrack-nao/


                  dates them from the 1200's



                  The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by marktwain View Post

                    Possibly carracks? This site :
                    https://exploration.marinersmuseum.o...t/carrack-nao/


                    dates them from the 1200's


                    Slightly misleading. The first documented evidence of a "Carak" appears in a Spanish document at the end of the 13th Century (ie the late 1200s) and they grew to fruition in the 14th Century and their heyday was in the 15th. They were the route by which the cog became the square rigger. Initially they were a Mediterranean development of a Northern ship and were essentially a cog with a second mast. In the second half of the 14th century a fleet of Genoese Carracks used to arrive at Southampton each year carrying olive oil, wine, dried figs etc which were traded for wool
                    The French appear to have begun to mount guns on Carracks from about the 1350s
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                      Slightly misleading. The first documented evidence of a "Carak" appears in a Spanish document at the end of the 13th Century (ie the late 1200s) and they grew to fruition in the 14th Century and their heyday was in the 15th. They were the route by which the cog became the square rigger. Initially they were a Mediterranean development of a Northern ship and were essentially a cog with a second mast. In the second half of the 14th century a fleet of Genoese Carracks used to arrive at Southampton each year carrying olive oil, wine, dried figs etc which were traded for wool
                      The French appear to have begun to mount guns on Carracks from about the 1350s
                      Hopefully, the Genoese didn't then slip over to Sluys and hire out as mercenaries.....Sluys fell apart for the French when the Commanding admiral informed the admiral of the Genoese Galleys that he " did not take advice from a peasant and a pirate."

                      The Admiral then tied the French ships together into three orderly rows . The Genoese , wisely, left.....

                      BTW, MarkV, I was wondering why you are the only British correspondent to respond , until I realized that your fellowmen all live in the Bedford area, - and have yet to see the sea...

                      BBTW, there is a Historian named Amber Butchart in London at the BBC. she is the Host /star of"A stitch in Time."
                      https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09l2qzs

                      Apparently, a Royal Navy reservist as well......Image result for amber butchart fashion historian
                      Last edited by marktwain; 04 May 19, 11:17. Reason: Amber.....
                      The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                      • #12
                        The Genoese galleys would be manned by specialist mercenaries. Genoa had some old families who were condottiere who owned fleets of galleys that where hired out. The French admiral was being peculiarly arrogant/insulting by calling the Genoese commander a peasant as the latter would have been a member of an Italian aristocratic family. No wonder he left the French to their own devices. He probably wouldn't be bothered by being called a pirate.

                        The Venetians used to send a fleet of galleys to Southampton but these were specially built to increase their cargo carrying capacity and were unsuited for war
                        Last edited by MarkV; 04 May 19, 07:22.
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                          The cog was a more suitable merchant vessel for northern waters. It was robuster and generally had a larger hold capacity. It probably had a longer in service life so that replacement/repair costs were spread over a longer period - an important commercial factor. Naval fleets of the time were largely merchantmen hired out to the crown for a particular campaign so if the crown wanted to have more warlike ships available it had to make some inducements to the owners of merchant vessels to purchase/build less commercial ships and this was usually in some sort of financial form like a subsidy or tax relief. The English crown in this period was notorious for being short of cash.
                          Mea Culpa. Outdated for maneuver warfare perhaps, but certainly not outdated for hauling an invasion force through rough seas, or a tough harbour fight in confined waters....

                          Last edited by marktwain; 04 May 19, 11:54.
                          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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