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Great books on the crusades giving the accurate historical truth

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  • #2
    Thank you. It was a bunch of Christian badasses invading the Middle East. I don’t know much about the Moslem side.
    "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

    "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by American87 View Post
      Thank you. It was a bunch of Christian badasses invading the Middle East. I don’t know much about the Moslem side.

      no offence but that sounds like the standard [and false] narrative. These books could help correct your false beliefs if indeed the truth is what you are after.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by American87 View Post
        Thank you. It was a bunch of Christian badasses invading the Middle East. I don’t know much about the Moslem side.
        You should
        remember the Fatamids &Sejuks - we argued about them one week ago.......
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by marktwain View Post

          You should
          remember the Fatamids &Sejuks - we argued about them one week ago.......
          As I recall, the Seljuks ticked off the Christians by abusing them in the Holy City of Jerusalem. That led to Peter the Hermit stirring up Europe for justice. Pope Urban II was moved by a desire to crush his rival faith. Many of the clergy, including Urban, wanted to save the Byzantines from Muslim-Seljuk invasion. Many fought because they were promised indulgences.

          Religion was the main motivating factor of the First Crusade.
          "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

          "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by American87 View Post

            As I recall, the Seljuks ticked off the Christians by abusing them in the Holy City of Jerusalem. That led to Peter the Hermit stirring up Europe for justice. Pope Urban II was moved by a desire to crush his rival faith. Many of the clergy, including Urban, wanted to save the Byzantines from Muslim-Seljuk invasion. Many fought because they were promised indulgences.

            Religion was the main motivating factor of the First Crusade.

            some of what you said is correct, some is not. I do highly recommend those books to you. If you would like I could share some of what actually happened. Are you looking for the cause of the crusade?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sic Semper Tyran View Post


              some of what you said is correct, some is not. I do highly recommend those books to you. If you would like I could share some of what actually happened. Are you looking for the cause of the crusade?
              I would like your take on it, yes.
              "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

              "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by American87 View Post

                I would like your take on it, yes.

                Crusades Were a defensive Reaction to Muslim Aggression



                The Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands....Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor, which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East. That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.
                -Thomas Madden the Real History of the Crusades


                "The Crusades were born from the violent aggression of Islam, which had conquered ancient Christian territory in the Holy Land and North Africa and established a large foothold in Europe within a century of Muhammad’s death in the early seventh century. Particularly troublesome to Christian Europe was the conquering of Jerusalem in 638 by an Islamic force that sacked the city for three days and destroyed over 300 churches and monasteries. ".......The invasion of Christian territory, Muslim persecution of native Christians and pilgrims, plus the threat posed to the Christian Byzantine Empire, were all legitimate reasons to engage in defensive warfare and Pope Urban II cited them as justification for the First Crusade.”
                -Steve Weidenkopf The Glory of the Crusades



                The crusaders saw their cause as a defensive action to protect themselves from further attacks and to reclaim lost christian territories taken by Muslim expansion over the past few hundred years. In 1071 a few years before any pope called for crusade, Islamic Turks captured the byzantine Emperor and destroyed there army. Constantinople was about to fall to the seljuk Turks who raped, tortured, and killed Christians while destroying pilgrimage sites and threatened the largest collection of christian relics in Constantinople. The new Emperor called other christian nations for help. The emperor send word to Pope urban if helped was not received, thousands more Christians would be raped, tortured, murdered and “the most holy relics of the savior” would be lost. With Constantinople under threat and with the emperor recently killed and his army destroyed by invading Muslims. The west believed it would unlock all of Europe to further Islamic expansion, so the west responded.

                "For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help.. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont...They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire.”
                -Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095



                “The history of Islam has essentially been a history of conquest...the crusaders far from being an outrageous proto type of western imperialism, as it taught in most schools, were...one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain the “occupied ground.”
                -Historian Paul Johnston



                Islamic provocations: by centuries of bloody attempts to colonize the West and by sudden new attacks on Christian pilgrims and holy places.”
                -Rodney Stark God's Battalions Harper one 2009

                “From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades.. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies.. it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their effortsl have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam's rivals, into extinction”
                -Thomas Madden



                Help Christians Traveling to the Holy Land and Christians Suffering Under Islamic Rule


                "The Crusades were also a response to the severe persecution of indigenous Christians living in the occupied territories, whose lives were severely restricted and who suffered constant pressure to convert to Islam Christian pilgrims were also subjected to harassment and violence, which demanded a defensive response from Christendom. The Seljuks, who were known for their brutality, threatened pilgrims to the holy sites in Palestine. As an example, a group of 12,000 German pilgrims led by Bishop Günther of Bamberg in 1065 was massacred by the Seljuks on Good Friday, only two days' march from Jerusalem."
                -Steve Weidenkopf The Glory of the Crusades

                “Open extermination of christian populations and the disappearance of eastern christian culture”
                -Bat Ye'or “the myth of Islamic tolerance” interview

                “The example of our redeemer on the duty of brotherly love demands of us that we should set our hearts upon the deliverance of our brethren. For as he offered his life for us, so we ought we to offer our lives for our brothers.”
                -Pope Urban the second



                A major reason for the crusades was to help persecuted Christians under Muslim control and to protect their own citizens who wished to travel to the holy lands in safety. Geoffery and Guy of the first crusade gave their motivation as “To exterminate wickedness and unrestrained rage of the pagans by which innumerable Christians have already been oppressed, made captive and killed.” Muslims had made travel to the holy lands expensive, near impossible, as well as dangerous with a real threat of both torture and murder of pilgrims who attempted the travel. In one severe instance in 1065 12,000 unarmed German pilgrims were slaughtered. Under Islamic rule rape, murder, torture, forced into slavery, prostitution, and forced conversions were all things Christians suffered from. No new churches or synagogues were allowed to be built Christians were prohibited from praying out loud [even in churches or houses] or reading the bible. They were not allowed weapons, were taxed and were to “feel inferior, humiliated, punished those who would not convert.” In 705 Muslims assembled Arminian Christians nobles in a church and burned them to death. More than 6,000 Jews were massacred in Morocco and In 1032 as many in Grenada. In 1570 Muslims murdered tens of thousands of Christians in Cyprus. In the 8th century 70 pilgrims from Asia minor were executed. Shortly after 60 were crucified. In the late 8th century Muslim attacked the monastery of Saint Theodosius and slaughtered the monks while destroying churches in Bethlehem. In 796 Muslims burned to death 20 monks from a monastery. In 809 mass rape and murder in Jerusalem. On Palm Sunday 923 churches were destroyed and Christians killed. Egyptians Muslim ruler Hakim had 30,000 churches burned or pillaged and had the Holy Sepulchre destroyed and Jesus tomb partially destroyed.


                "Muslim Turkish invasions in the 1050's caused much if not more mayhem and destruction than the crusades were able to achieve."
                -Christopher Tyerman God's War: A New History of the Crusades Harvard university Press



                "We have heard, most beloved brethren, and you have heard what we cannot recount without deep sorrow how, with great hurt and dire sufferings our Christian brothers, members in Christ, are scourged, oppressed, and injured in Jerusadlem, in Antioch, and the other cities of the East... are either subjected in their inherited homes to other masters... they are flogged and exiled as slaves for sale in their own land... has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion. They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness. They circumcise the Christians, and the blood of the circumcision they either spread upon the altars or pour into the vases of the baptismal font. When they wish to torture people by a base death, they perforate their navels, and dragging forth the extremity of the intestines, bind it to a stake; then with flogging they lead the victim around until the viscera having gushed forth the victim falls prostrate upon the ground. Others they bind to a post and pierce with arrows. Others they compel to extend their necks and then, attacking them with naked swords, attempt to cut through the neck with a single blow. What shall I say of the abominable rape of the women? To speak of it is worse than to be silent. The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and deprived of territory so vast in extent that it can not be traversed in a march of two months..."at least let the great suffering of those who desired to go to the holy places stir you up. Think of those who made the pilgrimage across the sea! Even if they were more wealthy, consider what taxes, what violence they underwent, since they were forced to make payments and tributes almost every mile, to purchase release at every gate of the city, at the entrance of the churches and temples, at every side journey from place to place: also, if any accusation whatsoever were made against them, they were compelled to purchase their release; but if they refused to pay money, the prefects of the Gentiles, according to their custom, urged them fiercely with blows....They not only demanded money of them, which is not an unendurable punishment, but also examined the callouses of their heels, cutting them open and folding the skin back, lest, perchance, they had sewed something there. Their unspeakable cruelty was carried on even to the point of giving them scammony to drink until they vomited, or even burst their bowels, because they thought the wretches had swallowed gold or silver; or, horrible to say, they cut their bowels open with a sword and, spreading out the folds of the intestines, with frightful mutilation disclosed whatever nature held there in secret. Remember, I pray, the thousands who have perished vile deaths, and strive for the holy places from which the beginnings of your faith have come.
                --Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095 August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 36-40



                Liberate Jerusalem


                “If you are conquered, you will have the glory of dying in the very same place as Jesus Christ”
                -Pope Urban


                [going]”On Pilgrimage to wage war on foreign peoples and defeat barbaric nations, least the holy city of Jerusalem be held captive and the holy sepulcher of the lord Jesus to be contaminated any longer.”
                -Raymond of Saint- Gills


                Another goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and other places made holy by the life of Christ and the apostles. The reforming Popes 100 years even before urban and continued through, were obsessed with the holy land, relics, the old testament, and returning to the early apostolic Christianity. The century before the crusade increasingly in the west cathedrals and paintings were centered upon Jerusalem , pilgrimages, relics and the holy land in general. In 1009 muslims destroyed the church of the holy Sepulcher, Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:

                “will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood … condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?Of holy Jerusalem...This very city, in which, as you all know, Christ Himself suffered for us, because our sins demanded it, has been reduced to the pollution of paganism and, I say it to our disgrace, withdrawn from the service of God...Who now serves the church of the Blessed Mary in the valley of Josaphat, in which church she herself was buried in body? But why do we pass over the Temple of Solomon, nay of the Lord, in which the barbarous nations placed their idols contrary to law, human and divine? Of the Lord's Sepulchre we have refrained from speaking, since some of you with your own eyes have seen to what abominations it has been given over”...
                -Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095 August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 33-36







                Comment


                • #9
                  Some other assumptions you had


                  A War Between Religions? A Religious war? A war of Conversion?


                  "the distinction between holy war and pilgrimage was real. The crusades usually referred to themselves as "pilgrim" or "cross bearers".
                  -The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden


                  “Christian rulers tolerated Muslim religion and made no effort to convert them.”
                  -Rodney Stark God's Battalions: The Case for the Crusades



                  The war was not primarily between two religions, it was between two groups of people that happened to be of separate religions. The wars happened because of a people group of people, that attacked another group, committed crimes such as rape, murder, forced conversion and conquest. Than in response, another people group, banned together and attacked the first group. No question there was religious nature to many motives, but had these been simply separate countries within western Europe or middle east, a war would have broken out.


                  “once their rule had been established the Franks proved remarkably tolerant in their treatment of non-Christian subjects.the Franks allowed complete religious freedom to all their subjects.” While Hamilton stresses that Jewish synagogues and rabbinic schools existed in many of their towns, contemporary Muslim sources noted with surprise that mosques were allowed to function in the crusader states (albeit not in Jerusalem itself) and Muslim subjects were even allowed to participate in the haj. This was because, as Jotischky notes, “the First Crusade was a war of liberation and conquest; it was not a war for the extermination or conversion of Muslims.” Far from being forced to convert, the Muslim villagers were run by a council of elders who in turn appointed a “rayse” to represent the community to the Christian lord, while all spiritual and social matters were regulated by the imams in the community in accordance with Sharia law!
                  -Jonathan Riley-Smith, Atlas of the Crusades, Swanston Publishing Ltd, 1191, p. 16



                  Many times christian in the holy lands allied with Muslims against other Christians or fought to help Muslims against invading Christians and vice verse. The king of Jerusalem Fredrick befriended and knighted Muslim emir Fakhr-ad-din. In fact many crusaders saw not Islam, but the Byzantine empire as the true enemy. Some of the awful crimes committed, were done against Christians in the holy lands. Finally Muslims and Jews were allowed to practice their religion in crusader states and forced baptism of Muslims was prohibited.


                  [the crusaders]"even during the expedition to Jerusalem, they demonstrated a more malleable attitude towards Muslims, engaging in extensive negotiations with fatimids of Egypt, pursuing limited alliances with Muslim rulers of northern Syria like Omar of Azaz and happily formulating a series of admittedly exploitative truces with the emirs of southern Syria,Lebanon and Palestine. The evidence of this is intermittent, and to an extant our Latin sources seem keen to present the crusade as an intense and unbending religious conflict. In reality, contact may have been continuing on a completely different level. Raymond of Aguilers asserted that a Latin priest and visionary Evremar went to Muslim city of Tripoli to rest and recuperate during the latter stages of the siege of Antioch suggest that cross-cultural interaction may actually have been far more common than we know.
                  -The first crusade Thomas Asbridge a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Were the Crusades a Conquest?

                    "the first crusaders and pope, thought all land would be returned to the byzantine empire"
                    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden



                    No. At the end of the first crusade only 4,000 Europeans stayed, they did not view it as a conquest but as a armed pilgrimage. With a few staying behind to defend Jerusalem. It was often the noble class that stayed behind that had wealth and lands in Europe not the peasantry looking for new lands. The holy lands were not a colony of European nations but were independent of Europe and money was continually sent from europe to support the holy land kingdoms.


                    Crusades for Wealth?


                    "We now know that greed cannot have been the dominate motive among the first crusaders , not least because as recent research has shown, for most participants the expedition promised to be utterly terrifying and crippling expensive."
                    -Thomas Asbridge The first crusade a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam


                    "This charge can be easily debunked with the simple fact that going on Crusade was an extraordinary expense—costing a knight four to five times his annual income. From being enriched, the vast majority of Crusaders suffered financial hardship as a result of their participation. Indeed, in order to finance such an expensive undertaking, many knights and their families sold or mortgaged their land and possessions"
                    -Steve Weidenkopf The Glory of the Crusades



                    Popes, Bishops, and Kings started taxing their people to help pay for the crusades because no one could afford to go. Many kings spent the nations entire treasury and multiple years worth of income of the entire country just to fund a large crusade. Knights sold vineyards, mills, inheritance, land and even entire counties to help pay for the voyage. The church helped fund the crusades with taxes. When the 4th crusade sacked Constantinople for loot, the Pope [who had excommunicated the crusade] condemned them saying they were after earthly treasure, not heavenly treasure. In 1063 a crusade was called for Spain with rich land and close by, yet few answered because they cared for the holy lands not money. A song composed during the first crusade read “There we must go, selling our goods to buy the temple of God and to destroy the Saracens.” The majority of wealth gained in the holy lands by groups such as the Templar's, came not from “loot” but from taxes from the west.


                    "The ideals of love and sacrifice and not the gain and conquest that are the dominating ideals of much crusading activity...crusading was motivated by piety and not the gain of land, entailing much suffering and hardship"
                    -Heath Thomas Jeremy Evans Paul Copan Holy War in the Bible


                    “Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt...Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.”
                    -Thomas Madden


                    “Most went at immense personal cost, some of them knowingly bankrupted themselves to go...crusading was very expensive undertaking...the best estimates is that a typical crusader needed to raise at least four times his annual income before he could set forth.””
                    -Rodney Stark God's Battalions Harper one 2009




                    Further it was those with the most to lose, that made the sacrifice.


                    “The cliche of younger sons being drawn to the Jerusalem adventure contains no truth. Almost by definition leaders were, if not all eldest sons, possessed of significant patrimonies of their own.”
                    -Christopher Tyerman Gods war a new history of the Crusades Harvard U Press Cambridge Mass 2006

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Crusading was a Spiritual Journey of Self Sacrifice



                      Considering how many are my sins and the love, clemency and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, because when he was rich he became poor for our sake, I have determined to repay him in some measure for everything he has given me freely although I am nor worthy. And so I have decided to go ti Jerusalem where God was seen as man and spoke with men and to adore the place where his feet trod.”
                      -Stephen of Neublons

                      “How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? … Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?”
                      -Pope Innocent III

                      "Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an "an act of love"—in this case, the love of one's neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar, "You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, 'Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.'"
                      -Thomas Madden the real story of the crusades



                      “The biblical text cited to justify participation in the crusades were predominantly the teachings of Jesus in the new testament- references of love, humility, self sacrifice for the good of ones neighbor, and son on. The crusades were understood as an act of humble, loving service in which people risked their lives to liberate eastern Christians from the threat of Muslim invasion of Christianize lands as well as Muslim attacks and actions of humiliation against christian pilgrims to the holy lands”
                      -Matthew Flannagan and Paul Copan Did god Really Command genocide” Baker Books 2014




                      The Call of Abraham was used to support crusades in Genesis 12 portraying the difficulties of a crusader leaving his family for economical uncertainty while facing difficulty in the long journey with a possibility of death. Crusading was seen as spiritual journey and love/sacrifice to God were the major themes. A major crusading verse was Luke 9.23 and Matt 16.24 were Jesus tells his followers ““Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.” This is why crusaders wore the cross on their cloths and carried crosses as well as on their banners. The themes of denying one self, and taking up their cross. Also Maccabees [catholic books] and various passages in the Gospels were used. Numbers 21 21-24 were used as reason for just [defensive] war, after Islam expansion.


                      "Documentary evidence predating the conquest of Jerusalem, such as letters and charters, nonetheless confirms that most crusaders were primarily inspired to set out for the holy land by personal christian devotion...In short, most noblemen who joined the crusade did so from a simple and sincere love of god ...The evidence for the aristocratic response to the crusade message, strongly suggest that spiritual concerns dominated the minds of Latin nobility while they took to the cross "
                      -Thomas Asbridge The first crusade a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam


                      "There is one motivator that outweighed all others: faith...Above all, love of God, neighbor, and self drove participation in the Crusades.........Love of God and the desire to serve him dominated the themes of Crusade preachers. Popes and preachers used the image of a Crusader denying himself and taking up the Cross in imitation of the Savior to motivate warriors. Urban II told the assembly at Clermont that “it ought to be a beautiful ideal for you to die for Christ in that city where Christ died for you...... “It is a sure sign that he burns with love for God and with zeal when for God’s sake he leaves his fatherland, possessions, houses, sons and wife to go across the sea in the service of Jesus Christ”
                      -Steve Weidenkopf is a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College


                      Crusaders were driven by faith in wanting to please God and self sacrifice for those persecuted. As one crusader said "carrying the cross” so that afterword, they may be carried to haven by the cross."Odo of burgundy said "the journey to Jerusalem as a penance for my sins.... since divine mercy inspired me that owing to the enormity of my sins I should go to the sepluchure of our savior, in order that this offering of my devotion might might be more acceptable in the sight of god." Urbonat Clermat stated "it ought to be a beautiful ideal for you to die for Christ in that city were Christ did for you." Eudes of chateaurout said "as sigh that man loves god when he cast aside the world.... for gods sake he leaves his fatherland, possessions, houses sons and wife to go across the sea in the service of Jesus Christ." Wolfker of Kuffen said he “wanted to fulfill the gospel command “who wishes to follow me”


                      “the holy war itself was preceived and possibly designed to revolve around Matthew 16.24.”
                      -Christopher Tyerman Gods war a new history of the Crusades Harvard U Press Cambridge Mass 2006


                      “Whoever, therefore, shall determine upon this holy pilgrimage and shall make his vow to God to that effect and shall offer himself to Him as a, living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God..If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me if anyone desired to follow the Lord zealously, with a pure heart and mind, and wished faithfully to bear the cross after Him, he would no longer hesitate to take up the way to the Holy Sepulchre....Brethren, we ought to endure much suffering for the name of Christ - misery, poverty, nakedness, persecution, want, illness, hunger, thirst, and other (ills) of this kind, just as the Lord saith to His disciples: 'Ye must suffer much in My name,' and 'Be not ashamed to confess Me before the faces of men; verily I will give you mouth and wisdom,' and finally, 'Great is your reward in Heaven.”
                      -Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095




                      During the first crusade, it was items of religious nature that influenced and pushed on the pilgrims such as the holy lance in Antioch that completely changed the campaign.


                      "pope] Gregory did not sell this planned expedition as holy war...but of mercy and act of charity ….It was prayer,fasting and sermons that kept the crusade going at Jerusalem"
                      -Thomas F. Madden The New Concise History of the Crusades


                      "Priests and other clerics who will be in the Christian army, both those under authority and prelates, shall diligently devote themselves to prayer and exhortation, teaching the crusaders by word and example to have the fear and love of God always before their eyes, so that they say or do nothing that might offend the divine majesty. If they ever fall into sin, let them quickly rise up again through true penitence. Let them be humble in heart and in body, keeping to moderation both in food and in dress, avoiding altogether dissensions and rivalries, and putting aside entirely any bitterness or envy, so that thus armed with spiritual and material weapons they may the more fearlessly fight against the enemies of the faith, relying not on their own power but rather trusting in the strength of God "........." others who have taken up the cross, and those who may still do so, to carry out their vows to the Lord "
                      -FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL (1215)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sic Semper Tyran View Post


                        Crusades Were a defensive Reaction to Muslim Aggression



                        The Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands....Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor, which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East. That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.
                        -Thomas Madden the Real History of the Crusades


                        "The Crusades were born from the violent aggression of Islam, which had conquered ancient Christian territory in the Holy Land and North Africa and established a large foothold in Europe within a century of Muhammad’s death in the early seventh century. Particularly troublesome to Christian Europe was the conquering of Jerusalem in 638 by an Islamic force that sacked the city for three days and destroyed over 300 churches and monasteries. ".......The invasion of Christian territory, Muslim persecution of native Christians and pilgrims, plus the threat posed to the Christian Byzantine Empire, were all legitimate reasons to engage in defensive warfare and Pope Urban II cited them as justification for the First Crusade.”
                        -Steve Weidenkopf The Glory of the Crusades



                        The crusaders saw their cause as a defensive action to protect themselves from further attacks and to reclaim lost christian territories taken by Muslim expansion over the past few hundred years. In 1071 a few years before any pope called for crusade, Islamic Turks captured the byzantine Emperor and destroyed there army. Constantinople was about to fall to the seljuk Turks who raped, tortured, and killed Christians while destroying pilgrimage sites and threatened the largest collection of christian relics in Constantinople. The new Emperor called other christian nations for help. The emperor send word to Pope urban if helped was not received, thousands more Christians would be raped, tortured, murdered and “the most holy relics of the savior” would be lost. With Constantinople under threat and with the emperor recently killed and his army destroyed by invading Muslims. The west believed it would unlock all of Europe to further Islamic expansion, so the west responded.

                        "For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help.. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont...They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire.”
                        -Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095



                        “The history of Islam has essentially been a history of conquest...the crusaders far from being an outrageous proto type of western imperialism, as it taught in most schools, were...one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain the “occupied ground.”
                        -Historian Paul Johnston



                        Islamic provocations: by centuries of bloody attempts to colonize the West and by sudden new attacks on Christian pilgrims and holy places.”
                        -Rodney Stark God's Battalions Harper one 2009

                        “From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades.. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies.. it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their effortsl have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam's rivals, into extinction”
                        -Thomas Madden



                        Help Christians Traveling to the Holy Land and Christians Suffering Under Islamic Rule


                        "The Crusades were also a response to the severe persecution of indigenous Christians living in the occupied territories, whose lives were severely restricted and who suffered constant pressure to convert to Islam Christian pilgrims were also subjected to harassment and violence, which demanded a defensive response from Christendom. The Seljuks, who were known for their brutality, threatened pilgrims to the holy sites in Palestine. As an example, a group of 12,000 German pilgrims led by Bishop Günther of Bamberg in 1065 was massacred by the Seljuks on Good Friday, only two days' march from Jerusalem."
                        -Steve Weidenkopf The Glory of the Crusades

                        “Open extermination of christian populations and the disappearance of eastern christian culture”
                        -Bat Ye'or “the myth of Islamic tolerance” interview

                        “The example of our redeemer on the duty of brotherly love demands of us that we should set our hearts upon the deliverance of our brethren. For as he offered his life for us, so we ought we to offer our lives for our brothers.”
                        -Pope Urban the second



                        A major reason for the crusades was to help persecuted Christians under Muslim control and to protect their own citizens who wished to travel to the holy lands in safety. Geoffery and Guy of the first crusade gave their motivation as “To exterminate wickedness and unrestrained rage of the pagans by which innumerable Christians have already been oppressed, made captive and killed.” Muslims had made travel to the holy lands expensive, near impossible, as well as dangerous with a real threat of both torture and murder of pilgrims who attempted the travel. In one severe instance in 1065 12,000 unarmed German pilgrims were slaughtered. Under Islamic rule rape, murder, torture, forced into slavery, prostitution, and forced conversions were all things Christians suffered from. No new churches or synagogues were allowed to be built Christians were prohibited from praying out loud [even in churches or houses] or reading the bible. They were not allowed weapons, were taxed and were to “feel inferior, humiliated, punished those who would not convert.” In 705 Muslims assembled Arminian Christians nobles in a church and burned them to death. More than 6,000 Jews were massacred in Morocco and In 1032 as many in Grenada. In 1570 Muslims murdered tens of thousands of Christians in Cyprus. In the 8th century 70 pilgrims from Asia minor were executed. Shortly after 60 were crucified. In the late 8th century Muslim attacked the monastery of Saint Theodosius and slaughtered the monks while destroying churches in Bethlehem. In 796 Muslims burned to death 20 monks from a monastery. In 809 mass rape and murder in Jerusalem. On Palm Sunday 923 churches were destroyed and Christians killed. Egyptians Muslim ruler Hakim had 30,000 churches burned or pillaged and had the Holy Sepulchre destroyed and Jesus tomb partially destroyed.


                        "Muslim Turkish invasions in the 1050's caused much if not more mayhem and destruction than the crusades were able to achieve."
                        -Christopher Tyerman God's War: A New History of the Crusades Harvard university Press



                        "We have heard, most beloved brethren, and you have heard what we cannot recount without deep sorrow how, with great hurt and dire sufferings our Christian brothers, members in Christ, are scourged, oppressed, and injured in Jerusadlem, in Antioch, and the other cities of the East... are either subjected in their inherited homes to other masters... they are flogged and exiled as slaves for sale in their own land... has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion. They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness. They circumcise the Christians, and the blood of the circumcision they either spread upon the altars or pour into the vases of the baptismal font. When they wish to torture people by a base death, they perforate their navels, and dragging forth the extremity of the intestines, bind it to a stake; then with flogging they lead the victim around until the viscera having gushed forth the victim falls prostrate upon the ground. Others they bind to a post and pierce with arrows. Others they compel to extend their necks and then, attacking them with naked swords, attempt to cut through the neck with a single blow. What shall I say of the abominable rape of the women? To speak of it is worse than to be silent. The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and deprived of territory so vast in extent that it can not be traversed in a march of two months..."at least let the great suffering of those who desired to go to the holy places stir you up. Think of those who made the pilgrimage across the sea! Even if they were more wealthy, consider what taxes, what violence they underwent, since they were forced to make payments and tributes almost every mile, to purchase release at every gate of the city, at the entrance of the churches and temples, at every side journey from place to place: also, if any accusation whatsoever were made against them, they were compelled to purchase their release; but if they refused to pay money, the prefects of the Gentiles, according to their custom, urged them fiercely with blows....They not only demanded money of them, which is not an unendurable punishment, but also examined the callouses of their heels, cutting them open and folding the skin back, lest, perchance, they had sewed something there. Their unspeakable cruelty was carried on even to the point of giving them scammony to drink until they vomited, or even burst their bowels, because they thought the wretches had swallowed gold or silver; or, horrible to say, they cut their bowels open with a sword and, spreading out the folds of the intestines, with frightful mutilation disclosed whatever nature held there in secret. Remember, I pray, the thousands who have perished vile deaths, and strive for the holy places from which the beginnings of your faith have come.
                        --Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095 August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 36-40



                        Liberate Jerusalem


                        “If you are conquered, you will have the glory of dying in the very same place as Jesus Christ”
                        -Pope Urban


                        [going]”On Pilgrimage to wage war on foreign peoples and defeat barbaric nations, least the holy city of Jerusalem be held captive and the holy sepulcher of the lord Jesus to be contaminated any longer.”
                        -Raymond of Saint- Gills


                        Another goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and other places made holy by the life of Christ and the apostles. The reforming Popes 100 years even before urban and continued through, were obsessed with the holy land, relics, the old testament, and returning to the early apostolic Christianity. The century before the crusade increasingly in the west cathedrals and paintings were centered upon Jerusalem , pilgrimages, relics and the holy land in general. In 1009 muslims destroyed the church of the holy Sepulcher, Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:

                        “will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood … condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?Of holy Jerusalem...This very city, in which, as you all know, Christ Himself suffered for us, because our sins demanded it, has been reduced to the pollution of paganism and, I say it to our disgrace, withdrawn from the service of God...Who now serves the church of the Blessed Mary in the valley of Josaphat, in which church she herself was buried in body? But why do we pass over the Temple of Solomon, nay of the Lord, in which the barbarous nations placed their idols contrary to law, human and divine? Of the Lord's Sepulchre we have refrained from speaking, since some of you with your own eyes have seen to what abominations it has been given over”...
                        -Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095 August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 33-36






                        I don't see how this disagrees with my post?

                        The Seljuk Turks were a Tartar people who invaded the Middle East and converted to Islam. They were Muslim, but they were new in the sense that they abused Christians in the Holy Land and renewed attacks on the Byzantine Empire. Defending the Byzantines was one motive, but it was tied in with defending Christian presence in Jerusalem; before the Seljuks, Christians had free rights of pilgramage.

                        Urban II also wanted to extirpate the Islamic Faith; he was a disciple of Gregory VII, who wanted the same thing.
                        But Urban would not have been able to muster the armies he did without the preachings of Peter the Hermit, who was obsessed with the Seljuks defiling the Holy City. Urban also promised indulgences to those who served.
                        It was largely a religious war in response to Seljuk offenses, and the Seljuks were Muslim.

                        The chain of events is Seljuks abuse Christians in Jerusalem-> Peter the Hermit preaches throughout Europe and Byzantines call for help-> Urban II wants to eradicate Islam and save the Byzantines-> Much of Europe, inflamed by Peter the Hermit, turns out to serve-> Urban II increases enrollment by promising indulgences.

                        The first crusading army was in fact led by Peter the Hermit and Walter the Penniless. They were so enthusiastic that they marched off without bringing enough supplies, and they were like a swarm of locusts marching across the continent.
                        "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                        "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sic Semper Tyran View Post
                          Crusading was a Spiritual Journey of Self Sacrifice



                          Considering how many are my sins and the love, clemency and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, because when he was rich he became poor for our sake, I have determined to repay him in some measure for everything he has given me freely although I am nor worthy. And so I have decided to go ti Jerusalem where God was seen as man and spoke with men and to adore the place where his feet trod.”
                          -Stephen of Neublons

                          “How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? … Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?”
                          -Pope Innocent III

                          "Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an "an act of love"—in this case, the love of one's neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar, "You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, 'Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.'"
                          -Thomas Madden the real story of the crusades



                          “The biblical text cited to justify participation in the crusades were predominantly the teachings of Jesus in the new testament- references of love, humility, self sacrifice for the good of ones neighbor, and son on. The crusades were understood as an act of humble, loving service in which people risked their lives to liberate eastern Christians from the threat of Muslim invasion of Christianize lands as well as Muslim attacks and actions of humiliation against christian pilgrims to the holy lands”
                          -Matthew Flannagan and Paul Copan Did god Really Command genocide” Baker Books 2014




                          The Call of Abraham was used to support crusades in Genesis 12 portraying the difficulties of a crusader leaving his family for economical uncertainty while facing difficulty in the long journey with a possibility of death. Crusading was seen as spiritual journey and love/sacrifice to God were the major themes. A major crusading verse was Luke 9.23 and Matt 16.24 were Jesus tells his followers ““Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.” This is why crusaders wore the cross on their cloths and carried crosses as well as on their banners. The themes of denying one self, and taking up their cross. Also Maccabees [catholic books] and various passages in the Gospels were used. Numbers 21 21-24 were used as reason for just [defensive] war, after Islam expansion.


                          "Documentary evidence predating the conquest of Jerusalem, such as letters and charters, nonetheless confirms that most crusaders were primarily inspired to set out for the holy land by personal christian devotion...In short, most noblemen who joined the crusade did so from a simple and sincere love of god ...The evidence for the aristocratic response to the crusade message, strongly suggest that spiritual concerns dominated the minds of Latin nobility while they took to the cross "
                          -Thomas Asbridge The first crusade a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam


                          "There is one motivator that outweighed all others: faith...Above all, love of God, neighbor, and self drove participation in the Crusades.........Love of God and the desire to serve him dominated the themes of Crusade preachers. Popes and preachers used the image of a Crusader denying himself and taking up the Cross in imitation of the Savior to motivate warriors. Urban II told the assembly at Clermont that “it ought to be a beautiful ideal for you to die for Christ in that city where Christ died for you...... “It is a sure sign that he burns with love for God and with zeal when for God’s sake he leaves his fatherland, possessions, houses, sons and wife to go across the sea in the service of Jesus Christ”
                          -Steve Weidenkopf is a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College


                          Crusaders were driven by faith in wanting to please God and self sacrifice for those persecuted. As one crusader said "carrying the cross” so that afterword, they may be carried to haven by the cross."Odo of burgundy said "the journey to Jerusalem as a penance for my sins.... since divine mercy inspired me that owing to the enormity of my sins I should go to the sepluchure of our savior, in order that this offering of my devotion might might be more acceptable in the sight of god." Urbonat Clermat stated "it ought to be a beautiful ideal for you to die for Christ in that city were Christ did for you." Eudes of chateaurout said "as sigh that man loves god when he cast aside the world.... for gods sake he leaves his fatherland, possessions, houses sons and wife to go across the sea in the service of Jesus Christ." Wolfker of Kuffen said he “wanted to fulfill the gospel command “who wishes to follow me”


                          “the holy war itself was preceived and possibly designed to revolve around Matthew 16.24.”
                          -Christopher Tyerman Gods war a new history of the Crusades Harvard U Press Cambridge Mass 2006


                          “Whoever, therefore, shall determine upon this holy pilgrimage and shall make his vow to God to that effect and shall offer himself to Him as a, living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God..If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me if anyone desired to follow the Lord zealously, with a pure heart and mind, and wished faithfully to bear the cross after Him, he would no longer hesitate to take up the way to the Holy Sepulchre....Brethren, we ought to endure much suffering for the name of Christ - misery, poverty, nakedness, persecution, want, illness, hunger, thirst, and other (ills) of this kind, just as the Lord saith to His disciples: 'Ye must suffer much in My name,' and 'Be not ashamed to confess Me before the faces of men; verily I will give you mouth and wisdom,' and finally, 'Great is your reward in Heaven.”
                          -Pope Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095




                          During the first crusade, it was items of religious nature that influenced and pushed on the pilgrims such as the holy lance in Antioch that completely changed the campaign.


                          "pope] Gregory did not sell this planned expedition as holy war...but of mercy and act of charity ….It was prayer,fasting and sermons that kept the crusade going at Jerusalem"
                          -Thomas F. Madden The New Concise History of the Crusades


                          "Priests and other clerics who will be in the Christian army, both those under authority and prelates, shall diligently devote themselves to prayer and exhortation, teaching the crusaders by word and example to have the fear and love of God always before their eyes, so that they say or do nothing that might offend the divine majesty. If they ever fall into sin, let them quickly rise up again through true penitence. Let them be humble in heart and in body, keeping to moderation both in food and in dress, avoiding altogether dissensions and rivalries, and putting aside entirely any bitterness or envy, so that thus armed with spiritual and material weapons they may the more fearlessly fight against the enemies of the faith, relying not on their own power but rather trusting in the strength of God "........." others who have taken up the cross, and those who may still do so, to carry out their vows to the Lord "
                          -FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL (1215)
                          Yes, there were many reasons. We're talking about millions of people, perhaps, who went on crusade. It's impossible to document each of their motives. Some may have been bored and looking for adventure. But the religious motive is the most prominent: people turned out because of Peter the Hermit and indulgences. Urban II wanted to eradicate Islam. Other motives, like protecting the Byzantines, played a role, but that was not enough to depopulate Europe.
                          "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                          "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Islamic caliphs repeat raids on Rome-statrting in 826. The crusades were a continuance of a he battles to wrest the Mediterretan back, and were particulaily successfull in in Sciliy.

                            Roger !! the Great bought innovations in military techniques from Normandy, plus an enlightened approach to his newly won Saracen subjects.
                            http://www.timesofsicily.com/roger-i...greatest-king/

                            Roger built and beautified churches, most notably the Cathedral of Cefalù, but most of his subjects were Muslims and Jews, who adored him. Much to the Rome’s dismay, Roger was a paragon of religious tolerance. His scarlet and gold-embroidered mantle was inscribed in Arabic and dated according to the Islamic calendar. His kitchen was staffed with Sephardic chefs, who kept the Christian king kosher. He flirted with Greek Orthodoxy, whether out of piety or spite. To project divine munificence, Roger kept an ostentatious court. Behind the scenes, however, he counted every penny to create an efficient civil service and a powerful navy. His fleet captured every North African port between Tunis and Tripoli, seized Malta and Corfu, harried the coasts of Greece, and abducted numerous Theban workers to staff Palermo’s silk factory
                            http://www.timesofsicily.com/roger-i...greatest-king/
                            Last edited by marktwain; 26 Mar 19, 21:18.
                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by American87 View Post

                              Yes, there were many reasons. We're talking about millions of people, perhaps, who went on crusade. It's impossible to document each of their motives. Some may have been bored and looking for adventure. But the religious motive is the most prominent: people turned out because of Peter the Hermit and indulgences. Urban II wanted to eradicate Islam. Other motives, like protecting the Byzantines, played a role, but that was not enough to depopulate Europe.

                              Millions? not sure about that number. Hundred thousand would be closer. But yes i agree "religion" or perhaps christian duty they felt to Jesus, Jerusalem, and to help other persecuted Christians was the driving force of the crusades. They made great self sacrifice to do so.


                              Peter the Hermit did indeed gain followers, but what did he preach? also his was not the largest group not even close and was msotley disbanded. The Lords led the largest groups. You say Urban wanted to eradicate islam, but what is that based on? how do you support such a claim? why were Muslims allowed to wroship in the crusader states? why did the crusaders allies with Muslims? why did they not eradicate islam? why did they not try and convert muslims? why did urban say islam and christians worshiped the same god?






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