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The Middle Ages: An Explosion of Freedom, Creativity and Progress

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  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    I wonder what Nogent had to say about Peter the Hermit, whom led the dreaded Peoples Crusade which took off from Europe well ahead of the Barons armies.
    Peter's story is in Book Two mostly.

    Full text here in an excellent English translation by Robert Levine.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/...70-images.html

    While the leaders, who needed to spend large sums of money for their great retinues, were preparing like careful administrators, the common people, poor in resources but copious in number, attached themselves to a certain Peter the Hermit, and they obeyed him as though he were the leader, as long as the matter remained within our own borders. If I am not mistaken, he was born in Amiens, and, it is said, led a solitary life in the habit of a monk in I do not know what part of upper Gaul, then moved on, I don't know why, and we saw him wander through cities and towns, spreading his teaching, surrounded by so many people, given so many gifts, and acclaimed for such great piety, that I don't ever remember anyone equally honored. He was very generous to the poor with the gifts he was given, making prostitutes morally acceptable for husbands, together with generous gifts, and, with remarkable authority, restoring peace and treaties where there had been discord before. Whatever he did or said seemed like something almost divine. Even the hairs of his mule were torn out as though they were relics, which we report not as truth, but as a novelty loved by the common people. Outdoors he wore a woolen tunic, which reached to his ankles, and above it a hood; he wore a cloak to cover his upper body, and a bit of his arms, but his feet were bare. He drank wine and ate fish, but scarcely ever ate bread.

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  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    He looks a bit like David Bowie in the 70s really

    I'm no expert - but it is likely that what is green in that picture wasn't green when it was made sometime in the 13th century iirc..

    the ancients made colours of the strangest things, and many of them changed over time.

    In fact - given that his sword and hair are the same colour it may have been some form of "metallic" or indeed "golden" originally, since it turned green, some form of copper may have been involved...idk.
    Antimony based pigments used to be used to produce a silvery metallic sheen, Antimony oxiide to produce a brilliant yellow and antimony trioxide a brilliant white. Byzantine artists were the masters of antimony. None are fast over a long period and can degenerate to a greenish grey

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  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
    I knew it! Dem Froggies, dey's all weirdos.

    Rimshot
    He looks a bit like David Bowie in the 70s really

    I'm no expert - but it is likely that what is green in that picture wasn't green when it was made sometime in the 13th century iirc..

    the ancients made colours of the strangest things, and many of them changed over time.

    In fact - given that his sword and hair are the same colour it may have been some form of "metallic" or indeed "golden" originally, since it turned green, some form of copper may have been involved...idk.
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 28 Aug 19, 03:41.

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  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    Grousset was an accomplished historian. I trust him, after all Grousset was inducted to the Academy of France. For a period of about 30 years Grousset wrote various history books, taking an interest in various parts of the Middle east and Asia.



    The book I have The Epic of the Crusades is a summary of Groussets grand work The History of the Crusades. BTW there are numerous references provided at the end of The Epic of the Crusades, starting on page 267.
    And what references does he give in regard to Godfrey's physical appearance ?

    Judging by the date of writing he was likely influenced by 19th century historical romanticism, that led his contemporaries to glorify and idealize medieval personalities in this fashion, see the Godfrey statue by Simonis in 1848 in the link below.

    This tells us more about the 19th century worldview though, than it does about the actual appearances of the men in the 11th century.

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Simonis

    I do not rule out there are historical references to be found in regard Godfrey's physical appearance, in fact it's likely,

    but it would be fitting for a historian to cite them, when making a affirmative statement like this :

    Very tall, broad chested with strong limbs, but a high narrow waist, and bright gold hair and a beard.
    For example, I've been in Bouillon and judging by the height of the doors there, it's not very likely he was very tall by todays standards
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 28 Aug 19, 03:19.

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  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    It's not footnoted then ?

    When a "renowned" historian writes that someone that lived a thousand years ago was :



    I'm naturally very suspicious (as should you be), and would like to know where that information is derived from.

    That's why serious historians normally include references in their work

    For example :

    https://www.persee.fr/doc/rbph_0035-..._num_70_2_3824

    As you can see below each page there's a list of references, so that what's written there can be verified and compared to what other historians wrote.
    Grousset was an accomplished historian. I trust him, after all Grousset was inducted to the Academy of France. For a period of about 30 years Grousset wrote various history books, taking an interest in various parts of the Middle east and Asia.

    René GROUSSET | Académie française

    Born in Aubais (Gard), September 5, 1885.

    René Grousset studied in Montpellier. After obtaining his degree in history, he entered the Beaux-Arts Administration as an editor at the Civilian Buildings Office.

    Engaged during the First World War as a sergeant in the 81st Infantry Regiment, he was wounded in 1915 and continued to serve as a stretcher.

    Having chosen to specialize in the study of Asian arts, he obtained a position as professor of history and geography at the School of Oriental Languages, then was appointed assistant curator of the Guimet Museum. Also a lecturer at the School of Political Science, he would continue and complete his career as Curator of the Cernuschi Museum, and finally as Chief Curator of the Guimet Museum.

    Secretary of the Asian Journal and member of the National Museums Council, René Grousset is the author of many books, among which are: History of Asia, The Awakening of Asia, History of China, China and his art, Indian Philosophies, The Mongol Empire, The Empire of the Steppes and the Empire of the Levant, History of the Far East, In the Footsteps of the Buddha, Table of the Seventh Century Buddhist, The Civilizations of the East, History of the Crusades and the Frankish Kingdom of Jerusalem, History of Armenia . Recall again his assessment of history , way of spiritual testament.

    His work is of utmost importance for our discovery and our understanding of Eastern cultures.

    René Grousset was elected to the Académie française on February 14, 1946, by André Bellessort, by 11 votes to 6 to Jacques Charpentier and 3 to Gustave Cohen.

    It was Henry Bordeaux who received him on January 30, 1947.

    Died on September 12, 1952.


    http://www.academie-francaise.fr/les.../rene-grousset

    The book I have The Epic of the Crusades is a summary of Groussets grand work The History of the Crusades. BTW there are numerous references provided at the end of The Epic of the Crusades, starting on page 267.

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  • slick_miester
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
    . . . .

    This is to my knowledge the oldest picture we have of Godfrey, as you can see his hair was green, with golden flowers.

    266px-Godfrey_of_Bouillon%2C_holding_a_pollaxe._%28Manta_Castle%2C_Cuneo%2C_Italy%29.jpg
    I knew it! Dem Froggies, dey's all weirdos.

    Rimshot

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    I wonder what Nogent had to say about Peter the Hermit, whom led the dreaded Peoples Crusade which took off from Europe well ahead of the Barons armies.
    I'll check later,...

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Grousset is a renown historian on this matter, I have the book right here, From Rene Grousset,
    It's not footnoted then ?

    When a "renowned" historian writes that someone that lived a thousand years ago was :

    Very tall, broad chested with strong limbs, but a high narrow waist, and bright gold hair and a beard.
    I'm naturally very suspicious (as should you be), and would like to know where that information is derived from.

    That's why serious historians normally include references in their work

    For example :

    https://www.persee.fr/doc/rbph_0035-..._num_70_2_3824

    As you can see below each page there's a list of references, so that what's written there can be verified and compared to what other historians wrote.
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 27 Aug 19, 09:45.

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  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Do you have a link to Grousset's original text ?

    I would very much like to see his sources in this regard

    This is to my knowledge the oldest picture we have of Godfrey, as you can see his hair was green, with golden flowers.

    266px-Godfrey_of_Bouillon%2C_holding_a_pollaxe._%28Manta_Castle%2C_Cuneo%2C_Italy%29.jpg
    Praise Godfrey is what I say. He was a brave Knight. I know some folks are not religious and that includes me. Im probably just as religious as you Im not very religious but I like many in the world admire people like Godfrey of Boullion. And we all have things or people we look up to, and for me Godfrey is one man I look up to. And to that point Knights, the middle ages and all of that time are consistently depectied in a positive nature through history via Literature and film. Thats a good thing because the character of Godfrey is backed up by history. Grousset is a renown historian on this matter, I have the book right here, From Rene Grousset,









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  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Phyiscally he was the typical Northern Knight. Very tall, broad chested with strong limbs, but a high narrow waist, and bright gold hair and a beard. Godfrey was a great hunter and was said to have a run in with a bear in Cilicia nearing dying in the encounter. Godfrey was a very strong man, a highly capable Knight.
    Do you have a link to Grousset's original text ?

    I would very much like to see his sources in this regard

    This is to my knowledge the oldest picture we have of Godfrey, as you can see his hair was green, with golden flowers.

    266px-Godfrey_of_Bouillon%2C_holding_a_pollaxe._%28Manta_Castle%2C_Cuneo%2C_Italy%29.jpg

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  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    (….)
    Godfrey of Bouillon hails from Lower Lorraine(also known as Brabant). Godfreys mother was the heiress of the dukes of Brabant, and Godfreys father was the Count of Boulogne-sur-Mer, in the Kingdom of France.
    No, no.

    Lorraine is not Lotharingia (although linguistically one is derived of the other) , nor is it Brabant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotharingia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine

    Lower Lorraine was something else again, although apparently the two are used interchangeably in English history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Lorraine

    THIS was Godfrey's Duchy - Lower Lotharingia which was granted to him by the German emperor in 1089 for his service.

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertog...er-Lotharingen

    Godfrey's parents were Eustace of of Boulogne, his mother was Ida of Bouillon, also known as Ida of Verdun, or St Ida (although there are a number of those).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_of_Lorraine

    None of them were Duke(s) of Brabant, the first duke of Brabant was Henry I, in the 12th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I,_Duke_of_Brabant

    Now let me read Grousset there
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 27 Aug 19, 09:03.

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  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Here is some of my work I posted on another board. In this post we will learn more of what the historian Rene Grousset has to say of Godfrey of Boullion

    Godfrey of Bouillon hails from Lower Lorraine(also known as Brabant). Godfreys mother was the heiress of the dukes of Brabant, and Godfreys father was the Count of Boulogne-sur-Mer, in the Kingdom of France. The following is how Grousset describes Godfrey.

    Phyiscally he was the typical Northern Knight. Very tall, broad chested with strong limbs, but a high narrow waist, and bright gold hair and a beard. Godfrey was a great hunter and was said to have a run in with a bear in Cilicia nearing dying in the encounter. Godfrey was a very strong man, a highly capable Knight.

    Prior to becoming his own ruler in Jerusalem, Godfrey was under The Emperor of Germany Henry IV whom Grousset said mistreated Godfrey, nonetheless Godfrey remained loyal to Henry IV due to the pious and kind nature of Godfrey. Godrey was a very dedicated Catholic, praying so much that fellow Christians would sometimes complain to Godfrey that he was praying so much that their supper would get cold. But that was the kind of man Godfrey was, putting God first, being humble, dignified and righteous. Godfrey would dress in a simple fashion, Godfrey was not into riches or pursuing wealth. Godfrey was a very wise leader, so much though that after some of those of Peoples Crusade pillaged Hungary, Godfrey was able to convince the Hungarians to allow Godrey and his men safe passage through Hungary and onto eventually Jerusalem.

    On to the Crusade.

    Hearing of the call to Crusade from Urban II, Godfrey took up the cross and made his journey from Lower Lorraine reaching Hungary, and from there reaching the Byzantine Empire. Pope Urban II called for a crusade for the reason of preventing the Turks from taking over Europe as the Turks just about 3 decades earlier scored a massive victory over the Eastern Christian Byzantines at Manzikert(1071). We should note about 50 years before the Crusade there was a difference between Western Catholics and Eastern Christians, a schism if you will between the Greek Church and the Catholic Church...Part of the reason Urban II called for a Crusade was also to try and end this schism and to bring together western and eastern Christians. Now that said the 1st Crusade still saw Eastern Christians fighting alongside the mostly Catholic forces. Eastern Christians were involved in the Siege of Jerusalem for example(1099). By Dec 23, 1096 Godfrey and his men reached Constantinople being welcomed in a polite manner by Emperor Alexius. I will say that Grousset reports that Emperor Alexius kept on asking Godfrey to make a pledge to Alexius, Godfrey kept on refusing though until finally Godfrey did agree to make a pledge to Emperor Alexius as the Crusaders food and supply was running low so Godfrey had to make a decision and in order to get food from Emperor Alexius Godfrey would have to make his pledge. It is claimned bu Grousset that Godfrey agreed to give to Emperor Alexius any land that Godfrey and his men might take from the Muslims.

    One of the major battles Godfrey was involved in during the 1st Crusade saw Godfrey fighting alongside other Crusaders and with many Eastern Christians(whom used Siege Engines) was to be the Siege of Nicae in May 1097.. Nicae was an important Christian site of which a mere 16 years earlier was taken over by the Seljuk Turks...where the Turks made Nicae the capital of the Seljuk sultanate of Anatolia. Indeed as Grousset reports it was teamwork between Eastern Christians and Catholics that would win the Christians an important victory at Nicae, by June 26th, 1097 Nicae was surrendered to the Christian forces by Turkish Chiefs. As soon as the victory was had, some Eastern Christians would raise Byzantine flags all over, this action upset some of the Catholics as they felt disrespected as Catholics died in the fight they felt they should be able to put up some of their flags. This and other issues would lead to disagreements between the Catholics and Eastern Christians down the road.

    After Nicae, Godfrey and his men as Grousset reports, set out to cross Asia Minor Diagonally from the northwest to the southeast, the shortest overland route from the straits of Syria. And it would prove to be a difficult and dangerous journey. Godfrey and his men would have to pass through the Anatolian plateau, a zone of arid steppes, culminating in the middle of a salt desert, where the question of supplies has always been difficult. Joining Godfrey on this holy mission was Bohemund, Tancred, and Robert Curthose...and the men decided to separate into two froces order to make the journey easier, the Turks found out of this separation and attempted to seize upon it. One force was led by Bohemund, another by Godfrey. And on July 1 1097..Turkish forces in huge numbers attacked the Christian force led by Bohemund by Dorylaeum. This was a total surprise, Alp Arlan and his troops caught Bohemund offguard.. Bohemund was barely able to form a line, and had a very difficult time at first fighting back against the Turks. In the minds of Bohemund and his men as Grousset says...was probably the thought of death and failure of the First Crusade. But the Christians never gave up... And Bohemund was smart to send word to Godfrey(whom was separated) that reinforcements were needed. Godfrey would eventually arrive with 50 knights to reinforce the action. A few other crusaderleadersand there menalso arrived, and the battle of Dorylaeum raged on. Against a superior Turkish force numerically... Godfrey made a great and heroic flanking action against the Turks, leading the Turkish forces to retreat leaving behindprecious treasures for the Crusaders to recover. July 1 1097 is a critically important date in world history. As Grousset shows, " The Battle of Dorylaeum settled the question of power in the Near East for more then a century. Since the day of Manzikert, and the Capture of a Byzantine Emperor by a Turkish Sultan in 1071...the Turkish power had dominated the east. The day of July 1, 1097...announced to the world that a new power had arisen....The Frankish power which would henceforth prevail". Had the Catholic led forces lost atDorylaeum , the world today may look different, Christianity may not have been the 1# followed religion as it is today, it could have become Islam. The Christian victory at Dorylaeum in 1097 in a sense was redemption for the Byzantine loss at Manzikert in 1071. In part because of the Crusader victory at Dorylaeum, we would see two centuries of European hegemony in the Levant.

    Grousset also notes wrt Dorylaeum that

    It is interesting to note that the Franks and the Turks, the military race of the west and the military race of Asia, learned in the very first encounter to esteem each other. The Chronicler of Gesta Francorum speaks to us out of his own experience. " We are bound to recognize the military qualities and the valiance of the Turks. They thought to frighten us with their hail of arrows, as they had frightend the Arabs, the Armenians, the Syrians, and the Greeks. But, with the Grace of God, they shall not prevail over us! In verity, they recognize, on their side , that none save the Franks and themselves has the right to call himself Knight"

    Godfrey was an important leader in all of European history, noted not only for his great military skill but also his honor and tolerant character. Godfrey was praised for his chivalry not only by Catholics and Eastern Christians, but by the Muslims as well.

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  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Even The most humane military in our world today which is arguably The United States ... has had individuals who have committed crimes.. for example in the Iraq war., The Vietnam war and more. In every war there is violence but in many wars there is also friendships built. Grousset reported the generosity between Franks and Arabs after the Catholics secured Jerusalem in 1099.. and there countless photos and stories of friend ships between Americans and Iraqis today. I would say the First Cruade included violence ..but it’s clear that those of the First Crusade can’t be compared to groups like Isil or The Reich.

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  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    You can't really classify people from a 1000 years ago by todays moral qualifications.

    Godfrey lived in a violent, intolerant time, in a world divided between Christians and "Pagans".

    Antisemitism is a very 20th century concept, but the ancients here were well aware of Jews, contrary to Muslims for example who were regarded as a pagan sect founded by an obscure "hermit".

    Towards the end of his work Nogent devotes a few paragraphs to the Jews of old and compares them to the Christians of his times.



    And of course when Jerusalem fell no distinction was made, all were killed, and no doubt a significant part of the defenders would have been Jews :



    According the norms of his time, Godfrey was a pious man, and pious men at the time killed pagans wherever they could.



    Well it so happens that Nogent actually quotes Godfrey commenting on those castles he had captured during the crusade, there's no indication he cared about their design though, on the other hand he was very well aware of their promotional value at home
    Well today I received my history book, The Epic of the Crusades by Rene Grousset. Grousset was a renown French Historian writing in the early 20th century about various topics not just the co called Crusades but also for example about the life of Genghis Khan. Grousset took an interest in the east. I wonder what Nogent had to say about Peter the Hermit, whom led the dreaded Peoples Crusade which took off from Europe well ahead of the Barons armies. Peter the Hermit is btw provided in a good light by Grousset which runs against the unproven allegations agaisnt Peter the Hermit on wikipedia for example. Peter was said to be a pious Christian, perhaps to pious as Peter was willing to take on criminals, criminals that hoped to attain salvation on the road to the Holy Land. Peter may have thought that some of the criminals that joined the peoples Crusade would change for the better, and surely many did but unfortunately not all did.

    Unfortunately some of Peters followers gave in to there old ways, robbing and looting for example in Hungary and in Byzantine areas. These actions upset The King of Hungary Coloman... and the Emperor of Byzantine Alexius Comnenus and btw some of those followers of Peter the Hermit were punished by the Hungarian King and Byzantine Emperor. That said, when the Peoples Crusade finally reached Byzantine on Aug 1 1096, Emperor Comnenus told the Catholics to wait for the Backup of the professional Christian armies led by the 4 barons such as Godfrey, even Peter the Hermit told his followers to wait to march against the Turks...but zeal and selfishness perhaps took over and without Peter the Hermit about 25,000 men, many non Knights but with a few Knights, set off and crossed the Bosphorus to battle the Turks. By Oct 21 1096 decided to do something remarkable, without a central leadership but with faith in Christ marched on to Nicaea the Turkish capital. The peoples crusade was crushed, and of the 25,000 men, only 3,000 would return alive in retreat back to the Byzantine Empire.

    And btw Grousset praised Peter the Hermit, where Peter went wrong was perhaps not having a background check on those that took up the peoples Crusade. Or perhaps Rather Peter should have tried to have tighter control over his followers. After all it was men such as Emich of Leisingen whom was anti Jewish, indeed it was reported that Emich terribly mistreated Jews. Otoh I can also comment on the character and behavior of other Christian leaders of the so called First Crusade. Btw Grousset points out that w of those 25,000 men there were some bad eggs, but not all were bad. There would have been good everyday people in the Peoples Crusade, one can imagine the Good Catholics probably tried to physically prevent the bad Catholics from mistreating others. In every war it seems there are crimes of course.

    Anyway Grousset says the following of Godfrey, and this is a total turnaround from how Grousset views Emich,

    During the Crusades he(Godfrey) was to prove a pious pilgrim, full of good grace, gentleness, charity and Christian humility.


    Godfrey was so capable that he was able to reassure the very Hungarians whom were mistreated by some of those of the Peoples Crusade. And Godfrey and his army marched right through Hungary toward the Holy Land with no issue.

    I will say page 31 of The Epic of the Crusades actually brings up the bloodshed at Jerusalem. We even get to hear the famous William of Tyre providing a bloody description of the Battle of Jerusalem. But I suppose as you said this was 1,000 years ago, and Jews and Muslims also took part in violent wars. By July 1099, Jerusalem was in Catholic hands again. Btw Godfrey was a very important military leader. Only three weeks after Taking Jerusalem , a huge Muslim army from Egypt which had entered Palestine led by the Vizier Al Afdal threatened to destroy the Catholic Kingdom of Jerusalem. At the time there were various disagreements between Godfrey and other Catholic leaders that could have brought down the Kingdom amid an invasion. But because of Godfreys honor and pious behavior, Christians that were in argument with Godfrey such as Raymond of Saint Gilles set aside there differences.... and united to save Jerusalem. Al Afdal sent in a huge forces which outnumbered the Crusaders greatly, but the Valiant Godfrey and his men surprised Al Afdal at the Battle of Ascalon resulting in a Christian victory and the security of Jerusalem for decades to come.


    Numerous accounts suggest that Godfrey actually meant with Muslims peacefully during the time of the Kingdom of Jerusalem..that speaks volumes to me. Pages 34-35 of The Epic of the Crusades talks at length about the respect that Muslims had for Godfrey. Godfrey due to his soft spoken and pious and kind nature, reminded the Muslims of none other then Muhammad himself. Arab Muslims and European Catholics in The new Kingdom had conversations with each other, they learned more and more about each other. Arabs and Franks would take up friendships with each other in The Kingdom of Jerusalem. Its for these reasons I truly Love and admire Godfrey of Bouillon, and for that matter we all have are heroes or things we look up to. Just so happens that one of the people of history I look up to is Godfrey, I often say to myself when faced with a real life situation, how would a Humble Knight like Godfrey act?

    I got much more to come btw.

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  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Then you should probably look at those crusaders that remained in the "Outremer" for the next few centuries and established and maintained kingdoms there.

    They, by necessity, would have lived among Muslims and interacted with them in less violent ways, those are the times when we start to hear about "baptized pagans" for various purposes, but during the first crusade, not so much…

    And in Spain and Sicily "cultural exchanges" between Christians and Muslims had been going on for centuries.

    People had been going on individual pilgrimages to Jerusalem and the Holy lands before the crusades too ofcourse.

    In fact Robert I the Fries, count of Flanders was sort of a proto-crusader, he went with only his personal retinue and remained there for two years, again I know of no indications he made many non-Christian friendships there though…, but I'd have to check.

    Unfortunately - short of Anna Comnena's Alexiad I know of no other sources that detail that expedition.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography...nt-of-Flanders
    And one should not forget trade. Venetian merchants were established in Egypt and Syria as early as the 800s. Venetians were already running package pilgrimages to the Holy Land well before the first crusade.

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