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  • #31
    Originally posted by MeenMutha View Post
    The Zulus had been commanded to ignore the civilians in black coats.
    I know that... Well, perhaps I should put it more clear, that black coats look very much like dark blue jackets.

    Also, I dispute your contention that only six people survived, and that they were dressed in blue. Many more survived, and they were also redcoats.
    This 6 refers to officers only.
    "[...]

    While Brittania's Huns with their long-range guns
    Sailed in through the foggy dew.


    [...]"

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Przemyslaw View Post
      I'm only telling about taking risk for ones actions... If You're taking boys against Zulus, You have to got enough guts to face bad outcome.
      Please, please, please, once in a while stop and think about what you write before you write.

      Concerning Isandhlwana an extract from Rorke's Drift: The Zulu War, 1879‎ by James W. Bancroft.

      "The dead on the battlefield at Isandhlwana were treated with disgusting savagery. They were disembowelled, and their entrails scattered amongst the debris. Some men were decapitated and their heads placed in a gruesome ring. But one sight more than any other sickened the men who visited the battlefield. The Zulus had siezed five band-boys, and either tied them to wagons by their feet and slit their throats, or hung them on butchers hooks by their chins, sliced them up, then cut their privates off and put them in their mouths."

      No way can this be justified. Not ever.
      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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      • #33
        I should say that wounds from Gatling or cannon fire were also very painful and devastating. Do you have any proof that boys were still alive?... You think thay your nation or any other nation never done such a cruel things during centuries? Zulus tried to defen thier homeland. They did thier best accoridng to thier own understanding which may seems sick to you and many nowdays people, but that was custom of Zulu nation. Very sad indeed, but Chelmsford didn't go there for vacation but to take other men freedom. War is very dirty business.
        "[...]

        While Brittania's Huns with their long-range guns
        Sailed in through the foggy dew.


        [...]"

        Comment


        • #34
          Przemyslaw,

          Actually the Zulu homeland was very small. Zululand at this time was an empire of several clans that spoke the Zulu language. They also carved large hunks of land out of their neighbors.

          This was a collision of two empires.

          Both sides did some very bad things. Since the British won the war they got to write the history.

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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          • #35
            On my doorstep is the South Wales Borderers museum at Brecon .

            http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/brecon/about.htm

            Well worth a visit , and they have both the headwear of King Cetshwayo, and the actual Union Jack flown at Rorke's Drift . The real history of both Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift is here, warts'n'all and without the Hollywood gloss .
            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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            • #36
              Pruitt, I know all that, but please notice that most of the tribes living in areas that Chelmsford's and Pearson's Columns vere moving through did not welcome Birts with joy but rather tried to fight them... Only Wood ran into some friendlies till he reached Inhlobana.
              "[...]

              While Brittania's Huns with their long-range guns
              Sailed in through the foggy dew.


              [...]"

              Comment


              • #37
                I believe Benjamin Disraeli summed up the Zulus best when he said, ""Who are these Zulus, who are these remarkable people who defeat our generals, convert our bishops and on this day have brought the end to a great dynasty."

                The great European dynasty he was referring to was of course the Bonapartes. The death of the Prince during this campaign essentially ended the hopes of Bonapartists in France for a Restoration.
                There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full. -Henry Kissinger

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                • #38
                  Regarding the mutilation of the dead " As was Zulu tradition the dead bodies had been ripped open to release the spirits." http://home.intekom.com/ecotravel/re...isandlwana.htm

                  IMHO the responsibilty for the disaster falls squarely on Lord Chelmsford. He underestimated the Zulu art of war believing firepower would overcame all. He had previously defeated another indigenous tribe(don't recall the name) that had used hit and run tactics. He ignored his own order about fortifying the encampment at Isandlhwana then spilt his force unknowingly in the face of the enemy. Lastly, he left the camp under Pulliene's command. Though a competent administrator Pulliene had zero experience commanding troops in battle. Durnford who was to have taken command on arriving at the camp demurred rode out with his force to clear the area ahead of the British right. The result was an already extended line became further disjointed and sealed the 24th's fate.

                  I have more source material but unfortunately computer problems are keeping me from those links at the moment.

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                  • #39
                    I have a question: why the British forces used single-shot Martini Henry rifles in Africa and not the repeaters? Was it because of the "volley fire" tactic or why? thanks a lot
                    Frederick William III of Prussia - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      vA,

                      The British were actually progressing. They were going with a rolling block breech loader with a metallic cartridge. The next step taken was a bolt action with a detachable magazine. The British Cavalry had used Spencer Repeaters for a time. There was no doubt a reason for dropping the Spencers.

                      The powers that be in the British Army did not really want an Infantry weapon that fired quickly over a period of time, say like the Winchester. They wanted accurate volley fire, with a bayonet for close order work. The Martini-Henry fit that bill. Unfortunately for the British, the bayonet was not high quality, and frequently bent back on itself.

                      If you watched ZULU you will notice the British used oxen transport. This is incredibly slow and they do not pull as much weight as Mules or Horses. They also were going to extreme efforts to protect the metallic cartridges. A couple of hammers to break open these cases would have meant a larger number of Zulus shot. The practice of giving out one box of cartridges to representatives of the units assigned to the particular wagon got a lot of people killed.

                      It was almost as if the British handicapping themselves on purpose to give the ZULU a chance.

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I am not certain this applies to British command in 1879 but I recall reading officers from several countries were convinced rifles with magazines would cause troops to waste ammunition. Faster rates of fire and troops would not concentrate on accuracy. Go figure.
                        In the movie Zulu Dawn one of many errors regarding historical accuracy was that most of the British infantry are shown using short barrel MH carbines. The Mk1 carbine version was used at Isandlhwana by British cavalry. http://www.martinihenry.com/carbines.htm
                        The infantry used the longer barrel Mk1 and Mk2 Infantry version.http://www.martinihenry.com/infantry.htm

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                        • #42
                          Thank you guys. What do you think about the Zulu movie (1964), it is historically accurate?
                          Frederick William III of Prussia - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Well, there is the issue of Michael Caine's unhistorical fillings in his teeth every time he leans his head back and screams "FIRE"! Several characters were changed remarkably, like "Hooky". Overall, though, I think it covered things well for a movie.

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I recall something that I read (probably in the excellent "The Washing Of The Spears") that the distance between the firing line and the ammunition carts slowed the rate of fire of the British infantry, compounding the problem with the ammo boxes being screwed shut; the runners had to cover too far a distance to keep the line adequately supplied with ammo.

                              So much goes into what the British did wrong as opposed to what the Zulus did right - they launched their main thrust where and when they saw that the British fire had slackened.

                              I compare this battle to Little Bighorn; there is so little attention paid to what the native force did right in favor of discussing what the invading force did wrong
                              Last edited by globetrotter; 19 May 10, 00:16.
                              "Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way." - Christopher Hitchens

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by globetrotter View Post
                                I recall something that I read (probably in the excellent "The Washing Of The Spears") that the distance between the firing line and the ammunition carts slowed the rate of fire of the British infantry, compounding the problem with the ammo boxes being screwed shut; the runners had to cover too far a distance to keep the line adequately supplied with ammo.

                                So much goes into what the British did wrong as opposed to what the Zulus did right - they launched their main thrust where and when they saw that the British fire had slackened.

                                I compare this battle to Little Bighorn; there is so little attention paid to what the native force did right in favor of discussing what the invading force did wrong
                                I believe the ammunition wagons were on the West side of the camp while the British line of battle was East of the tents. The initial British deployment was a wide arc approximately 1 1/2 miles long. The distance to resupply certainly contributed.

                                And you are correct. Most discussions about the battle center on the British errors. The Zulu executed their classic attack with perfection.

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