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  • The terracota army

    A must see for any history buff.

    It chronicles the Qin Army, the late Warring States period, and Qin's war of expansion after unification.

    http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...C0BA634D155DFE

    CROSSBOWS and PI (Spear)



    ABOUT HOW THE QIN ARMY COULD HAVE FOUGHT BY ANALYZING ITS WEAPONS.
    Last edited by IDonT4; 14 Mar 10, 22:09.

  • #2
    I remember when they had a display at the Melbourne Museum, IIRC the curators tried to hang an bronze sword with a couple of wires but it broke in two. I still have the book i bought, excellent pictures. It's titled Qin Shihuang, terracotta Worriers and Horses.
    "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
    Ernest Hemingway.

    "The more I learn about people, The more I love my dog".
    Mark Twain.

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    • #3
      Interesting video. I was browsing another one of the videos when I came across this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8VVmdiwVNw

      Fast forward to 5:30, and it mentions 6 meter pikes used by the Qin army. The entire video only mentions it briefly for a few seconds. The historical accuracy kinda falls apart when the video shows the soldiers charging at top speed with their long spears, completely out of formation...

      Apparently the Qin army were using pikes in similar fashion as the Macedonian sarissa...?

      Were the Qin army formations similar to the Macedonian army (combination of pikes, cavalry, and infantry?) that necessitated the use of a sarissa formation? (pining down enemy infantry while cavalry/other infantry did the flanking)


      The video also mentions the shorter halbreds/dagger axes and spears...and how they could have been used in conjunction with the longer pikes. So was it possible to have a sarissa formation with the shorter lengthed spearmen/halbred infantry in front, while the longer pikemen were behind them? (with the pike still long enough to reach the same length as the spears carried by the infantry in front) ?
      Last edited by Intranetusa; 15 Mar 10, 23:07.
      Surrender? NutZ!
      -Varro

      Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. -Sun Tzu

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      • #4
        Nice.

        Originally posted by Intranetusa View Post
        The historical accuracy kinda falls apart when the video shows the soldiers charging at top speed with their long spears, completely out of formation...

        Apparently the Qin army were using pikes in similar fashion as the Macedonian sarissa...?

        Were the Qin army formations similar to the Macedonian army (combination of pikes, cavalry, and infantry?) that necessitated the use of a sarissa formation? (pining down enemy infantry while cavalry/other infantry did the flanking)
        I think not, their infantry used mainly long weapons but many of the soldier do not have shield and heavy armor as the Macedonian infantry so their formation is more vulnerable but more flexible compare to the Macedonian phalanx and even the Roman legionary. In general, they prefer using long weapons in melee combat and the attacking infantry often charge, not slowly close in while keeping close formation like the Macedonian phalanx.

        And charging throw their formation into confusion (still, they aren't completely out of formation). So some generals often use this tactic: when the enemy formation is too firm and solid, they'd separate their army into parts. One part'd make contact then pretend to lose and retreat back disorder so the enemy think they are scare of them and pursuit(charging back). The remain parts'd set up an ambush, or counter-charge, or encirce the enemy. This tactic may seem quite simple yet very effective, the enemy often caught by surprise. So, a wise general keeps his formation and only charge when he's sure of something.
        Originally posted by Intranetusa View Post
        The video also mentions the shorter halbreds/dagger axes and spears...and how they could have been used in conjunction with the longer pikes. So was it possible to have a sarissa formation with the shorter lengthed spearmen/halbred infantry in front, while the longer pikemen were behind them? (with the pike still long enough to reach the same length as the spears carried by the infantry in front) ?
        Maybe, but it depents. Example: Sun Bin wrote when you're caught by surprise then you may arrange the front rank with soldiers using shields behind the barricade(waggon...), behind them place soldiers using long weapons, then archer...

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        • #5
          We went to China for our honeymoon .

          The Terracotta Army is awesome . This is our photo of the main gallery.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
            We went to China for our honeymoon .

            The Terracotta Army is awesome . This is our photo of the main gallery.
            Seeing what your wedding theme songs were, what the heck did you listen to when visiting the Terracotta Army?

            Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

            Prayers.

            BoRG

            http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Salinator View Post
              Seeing what your wedding theme songs were, what the heck did you listen to when visiting the Terracotta Army?

              Certainly not Chinese Opera . Went to two shows . Should have learnt the first time. Lets say its any acquired taste .
              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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              • #8
                Nice pics Nick ;D

                Ugh, I absolutely hate Peking Opera with a passion...sounds like chickens scratching a blackboard... >_<

                Too bad the classical music involving guqins have all but died out... =/
                Surrender? NutZ!
                -Varro

                Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. -Sun Tzu

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Intranetusa View Post
                  Interesting video. I was browsing another one of the videos when I came across this:

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8VVmdiwVNw

                  Fast forward to 5:30, and it mentions 6 meter pikes used by the Qin army. The entire video only mentions it briefly for a few seconds. The historical accuracy kinda falls apart when the video shows the soldiers charging at top speed with their long spears, completely out of formation...

                  Apparently the Qin army were using pikes in similar fashion as the Macedonian sarissa...?

                  Were the Qin army formations similar to the Macedonian army (combination of pikes, cavalry, and infantry?) that necessitated the use of a sarissa formation? (pining down enemy infantry while cavalry/other infantry did the flanking)


                  The video also mentions the shorter halbreds/dagger axes and spears...and how they could have been used in conjunction with the longer pikes. So was it possible to have a sarissa formation with the shorter lengthed spearmen/halbred infantry in front, while the longer pikemen were behind them? (with the pike still long enough to reach the same length as the spears carried by the infantry in front) ?
                  The terracotta soldiers are our beest evidence of warfare of this era. The problem is, we just don't have the details on how they fought like with did with the Greek and Roman armies. This is compounded by the fact that the soldiers are in parade formation, did not wear helmets when clearly they have them, and only 1 shield (a 1/3 scale bronze) was found. A parade formation for a review makes sense of these of these. The troops did not wear helmet sto show their rank as hair style indicates one's ranks in the lower levels.

                  I don't believe that the Qin would use a phalanx style formation for its pikemen. I think the pikemen's formation would be similar to the Swiss pikement, that is a massive square block capable of quickly changing direction.

                  In the Han, General Li Ling alligned his men as follows:

                  http://www.ourorient.com/articles/relations/liling.htm
                  Li Ling embattled his armymen as two alignments out the encampment. The armymen of the front alignment held halberds and shields, and the armymen of the back alignment held bows and crossbows.

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                  • #10
                    And unlike in Europe, there aren't historical re-enactors or living historians to experiment with the equipment to see if they could figure out how it probably would have been done.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The vast majority of the Terracotta army has yet to be dug up. They are waiting for the technology to arrive so that the colours on the figures do not fade immediately they are exposed to ait.

                      Theories may have changed, but when we were there, they speculated that the front line was close formation archers, behind which were columns of infantry to barge into any enemy. Chariots were either to help create gaps in the opposing line, or perhaps were simply to carry officers and flag/signal bearers.

                      The formation was not considered to be a parade formation, but one set up to defend against the most likely route of attack. However, I asked if they had looked at equal distances north, south and west from Chin's mausoleum to see if there was any trace of similar structures, but no one had even considered it?

                      Some of the technology used at the time was far and away ahead of the west, metallurgy springs immediately to mind, with rust free weaponary.
                      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                      • #12
                        The Chinese are actually starting a new excavation on Pit 1 in 2009. This is what they found.

                        http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attr...ausoleum_4.htm

                        In early 2003 when experts cleared up a tomb lying in a Qin kiln site, they unexpectedly discovered a skeleton whose DNA had the characteristics of a western Eurasian. Based on this fact, experts speculated that the frequent associations between Eastern Asians and Western Europeans had already started during the Qin Dynasty. From this they believe that the possibility that terracotta warriors with foreign looks will be found. The fifth expectation is that whether or not the green-faced terracotta warriors will appear again.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                          The Chinese are actually starting a new excavation on Pit 1 in 2009. This is what they found.

                          http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attr...ausoleum_4.htm

                          In early 2003 when experts cleared up a tomb lying in a Qin kiln site, they unexpectedly discovered a skeleton whose DNA had the characteristics of a western Eurasian. Based on this fact, experts speculated that the frequent associations between Eastern Asians and Western Europeans had already started during the Qin Dynasty. From this they believe that the possibility that terracotta warriors with foreign looks will be found. The fifth expectation is that whether or not the green-faced terracotta warriors will appear again.
                          I have never known of this website. Thanks.

                          Another interesting thing is newest theory that the green terracotta soldier may have be a sniper in camo.
                          Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                          Prayers.

                          BoRG

                          http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                            I have never known of this website. Thanks.

                            Another interesting thing is newest theory that the green terracotta soldier may have be a sniper in camo.
                            No problem.

                            There are many things we still don't know about military aspect of the Waring states period. DO the other 6 states' armies similar to the Qin's. The infnatry of the Wei were supposedly heavily armored. The Zhao had superior cavalry. We just don't know.


                            The Qin's wars of Unification and the civil war the erupted after the fall of the Qin happened roughly during the 2nd Punic Wars in the mediterrean.

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                            • #15
                              Hello.
                              Glad I left the barracks for some fresh air, and clicked on this thread.
                              I didn't know too much about these terra-cotta soldiers.
                              Very interesting.
                              How did they build the modern building over them?
                              Too bad Eric can't take us on a field trip to look at them.
                              Wouldn't be great if we could walk around, and examine things as long as we were careful?
                              "Advances in technology tend to overwhelm me."

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