Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Elephants in Ancient Warfare

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Elephants in Ancient Warfare

    Anyonr with more than general info?
    First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

  • #2
    The standard work is H.H. Scullard The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World, though his specific battle descriptions are very short (Gaza for instance pp 95-97).

    More specific studies are:

    M Charles:
    African Forest Elephants in the Ancient World Phoenix , Vol. 62, No. 3/4
    Elephants at Gaugamela, Mouseion, Series III, Vol. 8 (2008) 923
    Elephants at Raphia: Reinterpreting Polybios 5.84-5, CQ 57: 306311.
    Turrets, Gaugamela and the HIstorian's duty of Care, Scholia, vol. 18, pp. 29-36.

    N Sekunda:
    Seleucid and Ptolemaic Reformed Armies 168145 BC, 1: The
    Seleucid Army
    . Stockport.

    W Gowers:
    The African Elephant in Warfare, African Affairs, Vol 46, No. 182, pp 42-49
    The Elephant in Ancient War, The Classical Journal, Vol. 39, No. 5 (Feb., 1944), pp. 257-269
    African Elephants and Ancient Authors, African Affairs, Vol. 47, No. 188 (Jul., 1948), pp. 173-180

    P Rance:
    Hannibal, elephants and Turrets in Suda 438 [Polibius FR. 162B] An
    Unidentified Fragment of Diodorus
    , Classical Quarterly 59.1 91111 (2009)

    Bar Kochva also deals with Seleukid elephants in his The Seleucid Army. London 1976.

    It should be noted that Rance makes a more than strong case in defending African "towered" elephants in Philopater's army (as well as Hannibal's). Sekunda is a noted contributor to Ancient Warfare.
    Last edited by Paralus; 02 Sep 12, 04:42.
    Paralus

    Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
    Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

    Academia.edu

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Paralus View Post
      Bar Kochva also deals with Seleukid elephants in his The Seleucid Army. London 1976.
      I'm reading this book at present. A bit dry, but very informative.
      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
        A bit dry, but very informative.
        His dissertation actually. Even the production is "dry".

        It is quite good although, like everything, has the occasional glitch. Minor M Markle took him seriously to task for an error in the size of the Macedonian shield (45cm as opposed to 62cm). This was likely a "hiccup". Other matters - the Daphne parade as hard numbers of armed forces under Antiochos IV - carry more critical weight.

        That said, Bar-Kochva's autopsy of battlefields (Panion and Raphia in particular) is a standout of the work. I found his work on the Raphia battlefield indispensable (along with that of Galili - "Raphia Revisited" SCI 3, 1976/77, pp. 52-126).
        Paralus

        Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
        Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

        Academia.edu

        Comment


        • #5
          Supposedly Indian elephants are more prone to learning, and were used on a great scale in Indian warfare with great success. African, not as successfully, in the Greek-Roman world, whether due to enough experience, or due to the nature of the more obstinate African elephant they tended to create havoc across the lines.
          I had something on the subject, but need time to find it out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Cotys. I'm looking for a good book on war elephants. Preferably cheap it can be academic or general. I'm looking formire info on Carthage's elephants, western use of elephants, and Indias elephant usage in war.
            First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

            Comment


            • #7
              What about:


              War Elephants (Paperback)
              John M. Kistler

              War Elephants (New Vanguard) (Paperback)
              K. Nosov

              Which is better?
              First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

              Comment


              • #8
                Indian elephants are larger and can handle a turret which holds several warriors. African Forest Elephants are smaller and might hold a Mahout and one warrior. I think also that Indian Elephants tended to be better trained. When Hannibal mobilized troops for Zama he sent men out to capture Forest Elephants. There is no way they were well trained!

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Weren't the forest elephants at Raphia on Ptolemy's side given towers?
                  First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have heard that there was an Indian squad-type organization in the ancient armies that included one elephant, two mounted Cavalry and 5 foot-soldiers.
                    That sounds ridiculous to me- how could the footmen keep up? Why such a diverse small-unit at all?
                    I put it off to bad research.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You shouldn't. Elephants on the march were inherently slow especially those with armour and towers with men in them. The men could probably keep up and were used to protect the elephants vulnerable spots. Its an ok idea really.
                      First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ptolemy was able to get some Asian Elephants. Forest Elephants are much smaller and can't carry a turret. They typically might carry a mahout and one warrior (Javelins, Bows). Anytime you see turrets thing Asian Elephants.

                        Pruitt
                        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                          I have heard that there was an Indian squad-type organization in the ancient armies that included one elephant, two mounted Cavalry and 5 foot-soldiers.
                          That sounds ridiculous to me- how could the footmen keep up? Why such a diverse small-unit at all?
                          I put it off to bad research.
                          Sounds like an administrative unit to me -

                          like "each noble is to provide and equip for the prince's army the following..."

                          Weren't levies in europe also detailed in x men at arms and x horses etc.

                          Once assembled they would organize in more useful units.
                          Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                          Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                            Ptolemy was able to get some Asian Elephants. Forest Elephants are much smaller and can't carry a turret. They typically might carry a mahout and one warrior (Javelins, Bows). Anytime you see turrets thing Asian Elephants.

                            Pruitt
                            Yet Ptolemy's elephants are the smaller forest elephants and were equipped with towers. We do not know for sure either way.
                            First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What about the history and use of Syrian elephants? I heard that there used to be small population of elephants there but they went extinct in the Ancient era. In one battle, opposing armies had African and Syrian elephants and that they were ineffective because the elephants did not want to go near each other. What about use of elephants after the Diodachi, by the Parthians and the Sassanids? Were they simply too expensive and complicated to train and maintain?
                              The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X