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Islam angry since Jan Sobieski handed them their hat at Vienna?

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  • #16
    Yes, Cosmos...

    Good to see somebody actually digging a little into Jan Sobieski & his arrival at the head of forces at 'The Gates Of Vienna'!



    A different, much earlier September 11, as in 1683 when the Muslim domination of Europe was met & then turned from their conquest in Europe as it had been.


    On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

    ACG History Today

    BoRG

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Admiral View Post
      Yes, Cosmos...

      Good to see somebody actually digging a little into Jan Sobieski & his arrival at the head of forces at 'The Gates Of Vienna'!



      A different, much earlier September 11, as in 1683 when the Muslim domination of Europe was met & then turned from their conquest in Europe as it had been.


      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson.

      Comment


      • #18
        A different, much earlier September 11, as in 1683 when the Muslim domination of Europe was met & then turned from their conquest in Europe as it had been.
        Stop this sensationalist rubbish, please. The Ottomans never sought to rule Europe. The second siege of Vienna was part of the political squabbles between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs, not some grand Islamic conspiracy to subdue the christians. In fact, basic research would reveal that the majority of the Ottomans' European territories were Christian beforehand and remained Christian throughout the era - some places more than 500 years.


        Although I might be wasting my time, trying to explain this to Americans, a nation of religious zealots.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Roachthegreat
          ...the majority of the Ottomans' European territories...
          In Other Words/Translation: RULED BY THE OTTOMANS!

          It's no more nonsense than your trying to completely dismiss it, mate.

          It's a simple question which opens up any number of avenues for discussion as sought by my OP.
          Originally posted by Roachthegreat
          Although I might be wasting my time, trying to explain this to Americans, a nation of religious zealots.
          And your judgment of America as a "nation of religious zealots" is very far from the reality.

          In terms of "nonsense" I'd suggest you make note of who those other 3 fingers are pointing at while pointing the 4th at others, all on the same hand > yours < mate.

          Last edited by Admiral; 18 Sep 12, 03:15.
          On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

          ACG History Today

          BoRG

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Rojik View Post
            Yep. The Golden Age was already in decline before the sack of Baghdad but the destruction it wrought changed Islamic thought and culture forever. I guess that when Islam is under - or perceives itself to be under - threat, it regresses and becomes more insular and inflexible.
            The Golden Age was in decline in the sense that they were turning inward, similar to what happened in China during the Ming Dynasty, but it was the destruction of Baghdad itself that marked the end of Islam's Golden Age. Her libraries destroyed and her intellectuals killed, Baghdad never regained her place a the leader of Islam. The Mongols also ensured that she would never again be a rich fertile agricultural region that she was since the beginning of Mesopotamia by the destruction of her irrigation systems. The Mongols rebuilt Baghdad and transformed it a center for banking and international trade. Was it just coincidence that Osama's target twice was The World Trade Center occupied by lots of bankers and the like?

            How many people know that the wife of Hulagu Khan, the man who led the Sack of Baghdad was married to.............yep.........a Christian woman........

            How many people know that the Sack of Baghdad also marked the division of the Mongols and the beginning of their civil wars that tore the Mongol Empire apart? Forgot that some of the Mongols had converted to Islam, eh?

            Just rambling.
            Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

            Prayers.

            BoRG

            http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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            • #21
              I don't know how much truth there's in it - but I once heard Muhammed sought out both the Jews and Christians at Jerusalem and asked to recognize him as a prophet.

              They basically told him to go pound sand and that's why ever since islam is at odds with the "people of the book" -

              FWIW.
              Last edited by Snowygerry; 18 Sep 12, 03:34.
              Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

              Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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              • #22
                I've often wondered if that's where the term "Go Pound Sand" came from, Snowy!


                On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                ACG History Today

                BoRG

                Comment


                • #23
                  It certainly conjures up images of a frustrated desert prophet

                  The urban dictionary places it in the mid-west US however:

                  http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=pound%20sand
                  Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                  Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Admiral View Post
                    I've often wondered if that's where the term "Go Pound Sand" came from, Snowy!


                    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                    It certainly conjures up images of a frustrated desert prophet

                    The urban dictionary places it in the mid-west US however:

                    http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=pound%20sand


                    That was the reply from Scipio Africanus when Hannibal Barca requested parlay prior to The Battle of Zama! It sounds much more forceful in Latin.
                    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                    Prayers.

                    BoRG

                    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                      ACG History Today

                      BoRG

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        That's what I love about these boards you learn something every day

                        Is it from Polybius? Google yields nothing really.
                        Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Admiral View Post
                          RULED BY THE OTTOMANS

                          It's no more nonsense than your trying to completely dismiss it, mate.
                          It's a simple question which opens up any number of avenues for discussion as sought by my OP.
                          Dismissing what? Dismissing your completely unfounded and childish assumption that the Ottomans planned to conquer Europe for Islam by taking Vienna? Two things going against you:
                          1. Whatever areas they did conquer, they did not necessarily assimilate. Balkans are an example. While two ethnic groups, Albanians and Bosnian Slavs, did largely convert to Islam, the vast majority did not. Neither did they assimilate the Shi'a Syrians or Assyrian Christians.
                          2. Taking Vienna is far from conquering Europe. Especially when you consider that the Ottomans were allied with France. They did not seek to conquer Europe, they sought to weaken the Habsburgs who posed a great threat to the empire.
                          And your judgment of America as a "nation of religious zealots" is very far from the reality.
                          Sadly, it isn't. ~60% of Americans outright reject the theory of evolution, for example.

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                          • #28
                            If you actually had a clue what I really think about any of it, Roach, you might have a point, but as it is, you have absolutely none.

                            Now THAT is silly, so cool your jets, mate,

                            And you still don't have a point with your poll that is really based only upon the answers to questions as asked & answered only by some very convenient demographic chosen for purposes of the polling.

                            What's most telling about your commentary completely ignoring the actual question posed in my OP is that your own bigotry in regard to calling America "a nation of religious zealots" is as deplorable as that which would most certainly apply to those that would call you a Godless heathen or all Muslims evil.

                            IOW, pffft, spare me the drama, mate!


                            Last edited by Admiral; 18 Sep 12, 04:15.
                            On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                            ACG History Today

                            BoRG

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              '...trying to explain this to Americans, a nation of religious zealots.'

                              Oh, brother...

                              Now I think I've heard everything.

                              Anyways, the 'rise of Islam' historically speaking, began with Mohammed (who was also a soldier/warrior by the way) which began the Moslem conquest of the Middle East and North Africa.

                              For centuries the Eastern Roman Empire was the bulwark that kept the Moslems (be they Arabs, Seljuk Turks, or Ottomans) out of Europe, and the decisive Battle of Tours (Poitiers) kept them from coming out of Spain in 732. The Battles of Lepanto and the Siege of Vienna also kept them out of central Europe.

                              And yes, the Ottomans wanted to expand as far as they could. The current unpleasantness is just another example of what has happened before, historically speaking.

                              The virulent strain of Islamic fundamentalism that is behind the mess since 9/11 is a historic continuation of the much earlier Moslem conquests. Same 'stuff' different day. And the underestimation of the problem by the West is causing more problems.

                              And the Arab/Moslem 'preoccupation' with the existence of Israel is another part of the equation.

                              Sincerely,
                              M
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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                              • #30
                                @Admiral:Fun fact, if you read my previous posts you would see what my point is exactly.


                                And I dislike all religions equally, mind you.

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