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  • The Troubles: Ireland and N. Ireland

    I thought about putting this in Modern Conflicts....but I realized that this has been going on for so long....

    For about 800 years, Ireland was under the oppressive yoke of the English monarchy. Irish Catholics were systematically brutalized and left for dead through anti-Catholic laws and a rigged justice system that prevented many from making a living. Throughout the centuries, brave Irish men and women fought for their freedoms but many were forced to seek a better life elsewhere, mainly America while still keeping their memories and the Irish culture alive.

    When people think of Northern Ireland today, they think of terrorism and the evil IRA....what many people do not know is the history of it all....that the IRA, Sinn Fein aadnd other Irish groups may not really be all that bad....

    Irish freedom fighting has a strong connection to the United States....Thomas Francis Meagher, commanding general of the Union's Irish Brigade led his troops to glory and honor in several campaigns before mysteriously dying as governor of the Montana Territory (at least I think it was Montana) Meagher was a member of Young Ireland, an Irish freedom group, who after his capture and eventual imprisonment in Australia, escaped and arrived in America....

    In the end, the fight for Irish freedom, I believe is more than worthy of a spot here on Armchair General....

    is d'erinn me: I am of Ireland
    Attached Files
    Pvt. Bob Mana,
    Co. B, 3rd Maryland Vol. Infantry, 1st Brigade, 1st Division, 12th Corps, Union Army of the Potomac

    For the Union

  • #2
    Re: The Troubles: Ireland and N. Ireland

    Originally posted by PvtManaCoB3MD
    When people think of Northern Ireland today, they think of terrorism and the evil IRA....what many people do not know is the history of it all....that the IRA, Sinn Fein aadnd other Irish groups may not really be all that bad....
    You're right, of course, that people think of the IRA when they think of Northern Ireland. However, the IRA (assuming you mean the Provos) really are that bad. Their ties to worldwide terrorist groups are well-known and warrant their complete eradication (not necessarily killing, but shutting them down so they completely cease to function). It is a sign of great embarrassment to many Americans that other Americans help to fund their murder and terror.

    JS
    Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
    Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


    "Never pet a burning dog."

    RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
    http://www.mormon.org
    http://www.sca.org
    http://www.scv.org/
    http://www.scouting.org/

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Re: The Troubles: Ireland and N. Ireland

      Originally posted by Janos
      You're right, of course, that people think of the IRA when they think of Northern Ireland. However, the IRA (assuming you mean the Provos) really are that bad. Their ties to worldwide terrorist groups are well-known and warrant their complete eradication (not necessarily killing, but shutting them down so they completely cease to function). It is a sign of great embarrassment to many Americans that other Americans help to fund their murder and terror.

      JS
      Hear, Hear
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re: The Troubles: Ireland and N. Ireland

        Originally posted by Janos
        You're right, of course, that people think of the IRA when they think of Northern Ireland. However, the IRA (assuming you mean the Provos) really are that bad. Their ties to worldwide terrorist groups are well-known and warrant their complete eradication (not necessarily killing, but shutting them down so they completely cease to function). It is a sign of great embarrassment to many Americans that other Americans help to fund their murder and terror.

        JS
        Janos:

        I think your portraying a situation (at the moment almost dormant) in terms of black and white, when it is/was one with many shades of grey ( gray? ).

        True to say that certain members of the IRA did things that should never have been done.

        There again so did the Brits and the Loyalist paramilitaries.

        There are/were also murky links between certain elements in the British Intelligence services and Loyalists gangs.

        And now it’s coming to light that there were also murky goings on between the British Intelligence services and their agents in the IRA as well!

        Stakeknife
        Britain’s Secret Agents in Ireland
        by Greg Harkin
        An explosive exposé of how British military intelligence really works, from the inside. The stories of two undercover agents -- Brian Nelson, who worked for the Force Research Unit (FRU), aiding loyalist terrorists and murderers in their bloody work; and the man known as Stakeknife, deputy head of the IRA’s infamous ‘Nutting Squad’, the internal security force which tortured and killed suspected informers.

        Praise for Stakeknife

        'A sequence worthy of Catch-22 has the same agency employing agents on both sides, knocking off each other, so that one is left wondering who was really running the war, and for whose benefit. But then, Catch-22 was farce -- this is serious business, and murder.'
        Senator Maurice Hayes, Irish Independent
        http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Re: Re: The Troubles: Ireland and N. Ireland

          Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
          Janos:

          I think your portraying a situation (at the moment almost dormant) in terms of black and white, when it is/was one with many shades of grey ( gray? ).

          True to say that certain members of the IRA did things that should never have been done.

          There again so did the Brits and the Loyalist paramilitaries.

          There are/were also murky links between certain elements in the British Intelligence services and Loyalists gangs.

          And now it’s coming to light that there were also murky goings on between the British Intelligence services and their agents in the IRA as well!
          I gave no assessment one way or the other about the British there or their behavior. I addressed only the IRA terrorists, who did their acts as a matter of the policy of their movement.

          I am unconvinced by your arguments

          IRA terrorists are scum who murdered women, children, and other noncombatants at the direction and instigation of their leaders to advance their cause, although I acknowledge that things have gotten better (possibly because all the biggest dirtbags are in prison or dead).

          JS
          Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
          Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


          "Never pet a burning dog."

          RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
          http://www.mormon.org
          http://www.sca.org
          http://www.scv.org/
          http://www.scouting.org/

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Re: Re: Re: The Troubles: Ireland and N. Ireland

            Originally posted by Janos


            IRA terrorists are scum who murdered women, children, and other noncombatants at the direction and instigation of their leaders to advance their causé.

            I take it then that those, no matter who who they are, that :


            ' murdered women, children, and other noncombatants at the direction and instigation of their leaders to advance their causé.'

            could also be called scum?


            JS [/B]
            http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Troubles: Ireland and N. Ireland

              Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
              No exceptions come to mind, but I'm sure you're thinking of one.

              JS
              Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
              Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


              "Never pet a burning dog."

              RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
              http://www.mormon.org
              http://www.sca.org
              http://www.scv.org/
              http://www.scouting.org/

              Comment


              • #8
                Although we don't agree on this subject, sincere thanks for posting something both interesting and controversial. I hope more folks will weigh in with their opinions!

                JS
                Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                "Never pet a burning dog."

                RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                http://www.mormon.org
                http://www.sca.org
                http://www.scv.org/
                http://www.scouting.org/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Trouble is it's such a passionate subject it could quickly descend into a Flame War!

                  With (Virtual) Blood and Guts everywhere!

                  I used to live up the North when I was a kid. First time anyone ever asked me my religion was this little girl who said ''Are you a Roman Catholic?''

                  I was five years old!:crazy:
                  http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
                    Trouble is it's such a passionate subject it could quickly descend into a Flame War!

                    With (Virtual) Blood and Guts everywhere!

                    I used to live up the North when I was a kid. First time anyone ever asked me my religion was this little girl who said ''Are you a Roman Catholic?''

                    I was five years old!:crazy:
                    Yikes! Don't need that! And apologies for being a little too sarcastic 2 (of my) posts ago.

                    JS
                    Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                    Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                    "Never pet a burning dog."

                    RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                    http://www.mormon.org
                    http://www.sca.org
                    http://www.scv.org/
                    http://www.scouting.org/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Janos
                      Yikes! Don't need that! And apologies for being a little too sarcastic 2 (of my) posts ago.

                      JS
                      No probs Janos! Please accept the same from me if I caused offence.

                      Just to point out that the vast majority of people in the North are good folks. It's just that when it comes to politics things can get a bit sticky!

                      Down here in the South most people viewed the Troubles as the fault of both sides + the British Government. A lot of people just didn't want to know.

                      Today with the North more or less quite people just hope it will stay that way. Of course there will always be minor incidents.
                      Last Summer was the quietest in over 30 years but is that just a once off?

                      The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 established a Framework for Peace, which is still not really off the ground. But at least the amount of violence is greatly reduced.

                      The idea of the GFA is that there will be a power-sharing executive in the North with both sides having executive Cabinet positions relative to the size of their vote turnout.

                      In addition there are to be strong North-South government funded organizations working in an All Ireland context.

                      Problem is the Unionists won't play ball anymore until the IRA decommission all their weapons. Now while the IRA have destroyed some of their arsenal they are unlikely to go any further until the Executive is back up and running.

                      In addition they want policing in the North to be subject to control by locally elected politicians rather than under the British Government as it is at the moment.

                      + they want a large scale wind-down of the British military presence and the disbandment of the Loyalist paramilitaries + vast reduction in the amount of guns in private (read Unionist) hands.

                      The Unionists can live (just about!) with a shared Government concept but are none too keen of having to sit in the same room with Irish Republicans to do it.

                      They would much prefer to have the BG look after all aspects of security right now.

                      North-South bodies are something they much don’t like either but so long as they are confined to non-contentious issues like Tourism, the Environment etc. then they can live with the idea.

                      While mainstream Unionism would also like to see the back of the Loyalist gangs they don’t want the British military reduced and are most unlikely to press or accept the curtailment of privately held weapons.

                      Tall orders as you can see!

                      The British Government is most reluctant to proceed with a policing structure that Sinn Fein wants, as many of the locally elected politicians will belong to Sinn Fein!

                      An interesting one to watch for are the Euro elections to be held North and South on June 10 and 11.

                      Sinn Fein are standing in both parts of Ireland and are expected to do well.

                      The vast majority of their support in recent years has come from the Nationalist electorate in the North. But now they are expected to do well down here now too. That is bound to change the outlook of the Party as southern members increase their influence. The North is not the be all and end all of their concerns. It will be just one issue amongst others. A Big one mind but other factors play a large part too.

                      Well one thing about politics in Ireland... its never boring for too long!


                      Imagine if you lived in say Denmark!: sleep
                      :
                      http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A bit of history if you please:

                        I have made great friends in the policing community in Northern Ireland and still correspond with them to this day. I do have their version of the Troubles. Now I wouldn't mind getting an Ireland history 101 lesson please. Was there always two Irelands? Other than the obvious reasons, why is there still two Irelands?
                        http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

                        Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Mr. Wolfe Tone is probably the best bet to talk to, but I think I can answer briefly, at least....

                          When the Republic was founded in 1921, one of the conditions was that the Protestant-majority north would remain with the UK. Protestants in the north did not want to be ruled by the Catholic majority in the south because there was a provision in the constitution of the Republic for Catholicism to have a little bit of a higher standing than Protestantism.


                          In the end, while I certainly do not condone the more heinous actions of some of the IRA, the English really need to be noted for 800 years of the exact same thing.
                          Pvt. Bob Mana,
                          Co. B, 3rd Maryland Vol. Infantry, 1st Brigade, 1st Division, 12th Corps, Union Army of the Potomac

                          For the Union

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As a follow up question, why hasn't there been an equivalent of the IRA in Scotland or Wales? Is it also a question of religion?
                            http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

                            Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PvtManaCoB3MD
                              Mr. Wolfe Tone is probably the best bet to talk to, but I think I can answer briefly, at least....

                              When the Republic was founded in 1921, one of the conditions was that the Protestant-majority north would remain with the UK. Protestants in the north did not want to be ruled by the Catholic majority in the south because there was a provision in the constitution of the Republic for Catholicism to have a little bit of a higher standing than Protestantism.


                              In the end, while I certainly do not condone the more heinous actions of some of the IRA, the English really need to be noted for 800 years of the exact same thing.
                              Bob:

                              Your basic observation is correct in that the majority within the Six Counties did not/does not want to be part of an Ireland ruled from Dublin.

                              However the Irish Republic was proclaimed in 1916 in Dublin by Padraig Pearse + others, at the time of the Easter Rising.

                              When Sinn Fein won the elections of December 1918 in Ireland they set up an independent Parliament called in Irish ''Dail Eireann'', which met for the first time in January 1919. Of course the British banned it as ''illegal''.

                              At the same time a vicious guerrilla war began against British rule with both sides putting the boot in so to speak. Now known as ‘The War of Independence’ at the time it was known as, yes you guessed it: ‘The Troubles’!

                              Once it became clear that some kind of deal would have to be worked out with nationalist Ireland the British Government pushed ahead with their plan to Partition Ireland into two parts. There would be a Parliament for Southern Ireland and a Parliament for Northern Ireland. Both jurisdictions would remain within the United Kingdom. The Northern State was up and running by May 1921 and the British then turned their attention to striking a deal with ‘The Murder Gang’’ as Lloyd George dubbed the IRA.

                              When the Truce was agreed between the IRA and the Brits in July 1921 the Northern State had already been established and its forces were being kitted out at British expense to be able to resist any Republican attempts to overthrow it. There was a very bad sectarian conflict in the North between 1920 and 1922 with hundreds killed there too. The Catholics got the worst of it, but innocents died on both sides.

                              After some months of negotiations a Treaty was signed in London in December 1921 between the Irish delegation (which included Michael Collins) and the British led by the Prime Minister Lloyd George (Churchill was part of the team too). This Treaty provided for the establishment of an Irish Free State (not a Republic!) of the remaining 26 counties. The key sticking point in the subsequent debates at home was over the Oath of Allegiance that all members of the Dail would be required to take to King George V and his successors. Also the Free State would remain within the British Empire with a Dominion status akin to that of Canada etc. The Republican movement split over this and there was a Civil War from June 1922 to May 1923, which the Free State won.

                              While all that was going on the Loyalists consolidated their hold over the North, with the end result being Catholics were in effect second-class citizens there. The Treaty had allowed for those areas of the North along the Border where Nationalists were the majority to be transferred to the Free State through the mechanism of a Boundary Commission. But that ended in a fiasco in 1925 and the Border remains the same today as at the time of Partition in May 1921.

                              The Free State finally abolished the Oath in 1932 and left what was by then the British Commonwealth in 1949 and declared a Republic.

                              Both parts of Ireland became part of the EEC, now the European Union, in 1973 when Britain and Ireland joined.

                              The special position of the Catholic Church was not part of the Irish Constitution until 1937 and was not the reason for Partition. Fear of ‘Rome Rule’ was though, but that card had been played many times over the centuries. BTW that ridiculous article was removed by referendum in 1972, a generation ago now. As you can see it made little difference to Unionist attitudes anyway and was always something of a Red Herring.

                              The North has seen many ups and downs but the population there is now almost evenly divided. The present realities mean that any working political model is going to have to allow for both the British and Irish populations there the chance to express their identity through the sharing of executive power at local level, while building positive links between North and South. The active input of both the British and Irish Governments is also needed to ensure that fair play is done.

                              Not so sure if it’s the way I would go about it but that is what most people on this island voted for in the GFA so I’ll just have to go along with it. :spill:
                              http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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