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  • Operation Storm (Croatia, 1995)

    When Yugoslavia came apart in war in the early 90s, local Serbs were armed and equipped by the Yugoslav Army. This enabled them to successfully hold their parts of the "republics" they occupied.

    In 1995, Croatia hired MPRI, Inc., a US defense contractor, to draft an operations order to drive the Croatian-Serbs from Krajina, the part of Croatia they had held for three years. This became Operation Storm.

    Carefully integrating Croatian, Bosniak, and Bosnian-Croat forces, they brushed through the UN peacekeepers and crushed the Bosnian-Serb army in a matter of days, then crossed the border into Bosnian-Serb territory, crushing them in turn.

    Their major city, Banja Luka, threatened, the Bosnian-Serbs sued for peace and ended the fighting in Croatia and Bosnia.

    What are your opinions on MPRI's role? What about the offensive itself? Where the Croatians right to blow through the peacekeepers?

    JS
    Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
    Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


    "Never pet a burning dog."

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  • #2
    Should civilian contractors have been hired? Hell NO!!

    Were the Croats justified in pushing through the UN? Even more Hell NO!! Although that offensive proved successful to the Croats, there were war atrocities performed by the Croats against Bosnian Serbs.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by dannybou
      Should civilian contractors have been hired? Hell NO!!

      Were the Croats justified in pushing through the UN? Even more Hell NO!! Although that offensive proved successful to the Croats, there were war atrocities performed by the Croats against Bosnian Serbs.
      OK, devil's advocate here:
      1. Why not hire civilian contractors?
      2, The Croats were in a state of war wherein the Croatian Serbs were not respecting the laws of war. In order to end the war and the suffering of their people, they took the necessary steps. Would it have been better to let the suffering and war go on for another couple of years?
      JS
      Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
      Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


      "Never pet a burning dog."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Janos
        OK, devil's advocate here:
        1. Why not hire civilian contractors?
        2, The Croats were in a state of war wherein the Croatian Serbs were not respecting the laws of war. In order to end the war and the suffering of their people, they took the necessary steps. Would it have been better to let the suffering and war go on for another couple of years?
        JS
        1. ROE are simply not the same between civilians and military. Plus if the Croats couldn't make due between themselves without the help of US civilian contractors..... it doesn't say alot for their leadership.

        2. I will concede that the Croatian Serbs weren't respecting the laws of war, but neither were the Croats and the Bosnian Muslims for that case either. Although I know for a fact that the UN is a very slow, and I emphasize the word slow, to act and implemante (sp?) their resolutions, it's the best we got and countries have to respect their authority and their troops. The Croats found that out in the Medak pocket against the PPCLI. The Balkans, as you know, is one hell of a powder keg, always has and always will. For obvious reasons we all think that the Serbs were the bad guys, but they are still arresting and charging KLA members in Kosovo for war crimes.
        Bottom line, if you want truly a peace and security for your country, then you must cooperate with the UN, KFOR, SFOR forces in the theatre.
        http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dannybou
          1. ROE are simply not the same between civilians and military. Plus if the Croats couldn't make due between themselves without the help of US civilian contractors..... it doesn't say alot for their leadership.

          2. I will concede that the Croatian Serbs weren't respecting the laws of war, but neither were the Croats and the Bosnian Muslims for that case either. Although I know for a fact that the UN is a very slow, and I emphasize the word slow, to act and implemante (sp?) their resolutions, it's the best we got and countries have to respect their authority and their troops. The Croats found that out in the Medak pocket against the PPCLI. The Balkans, as you know, is one hell of a powder keg, always has and always will. For obvious reasons we all think that the Serbs were the bad guys, but they are still arresting and charging KLA members in Kosovo for war crimes.
          Bottom line, if you want truly a peace and security for your country, then you must cooperate with the UN, KFOR, SFOR forces in the theatre.
          Do you have any further info on Croation atrocities. I know so little but suspect alot. Can you help me out, please?:quest:
          "To know the weapons the enemy has is already to beat them!"

          http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-photo-vf213-01l.jpg

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hellodoggie
            Do you have any further info on Croation atrocities. I know so little but suspect alot. Can you help me out, please?:quest:
            A few examples:

            http://www.dnd.ca/site/community/map...ol_1_05___army

            http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/lm53/LM53.html

            http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/JUT307A.html
            http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dannybou
              1. ROE are simply not the same between civilians and military. Plus if the Croats couldn't make due between themselves without the help of US civilian contractors..... it doesn't say alot for their leadership.
              1a. If they planned the war in Virginia or New York (I don't know where they were), ROE would not be an issue. I doubt they would be considered combatants in any case.
              1b. Serbs had no problem using Yugoslav officers, on Yugoslav payroll, in Serbia uniforms during the war. Remember that the old (pre-1992) Yugoslav officer corps was 90% Serb and they were loyal to Serb groups during the war. The Croats started with nothing. Taking to the realm of the hypothetical -- if the Croats had given these guys military rank, would it have been better?
              Originally posted by dannybou
              2. I will concede that the Croatian Serbs weren't respecting the laws of war, but neither were the Croats and the Bosnian Muslims for that case either. Although I know for a fact that the UN is a very slow, and I emphasize the word slow, to act and implemante (sp?) their resolutions, it's the best we got and countries have to respect their authority and their troops. The Croats found that out in the Medak pocket against the PPCLI. The Balkans, as you know, is one hell of a powder keg, always has and always will. For obvious reasons we all think that the Serbs were the bad guys, but they are still arresting and charging KLA members in Kosovo for war crimes.
              Bottom line, if you want truly a peace and security for your country, then you must cooperate with the UN, KFOR, SFOR forces in the theatre.
              2. SFOR and KFOR didn't exist yet, and UNPROFOR was useless. The Croats felt (as I do) that the UN, through it's incompetence, was extending war and insecurity through their failure to take decisive action.
              They're still looking for a "shedload" of Serbs for warcrimes, too.
              JS
              Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
              Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


              "Never pet a burning dog."

              RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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              • #8
                Do you have any further info on Croation atrocities. I know so little but suspect alot. Can you help me out, please?
                Are you just looking for current stuff? Otherwise,you could find volumes during WW2. Im told their activities made their German allies wince.
                Delegate, MN GOP.

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                • #9
                  I didn't see anything in the first site about Croatian atrocities against Serbs, altho' it provided a good rundown on the Serbs attacking the UN.

                  I'd be very wary of the second site...it's run by the Serbs, who were the enemy and are notorious for inaccurate reports during the war (and since).

                  As for the last, I'm not sure what to think. There is no doubt that UN airstrikes aided the Croats, but I after reading two books on the operation and working with a lot of experts (including the AFSOUTH targetter, who is a friend of mine), I have yet to have anyone tell me that there was any cooperation between UN/NATO and the Croat forces -- it's just that our goals coincided and the Croats took advantage of a good thing.

                  JS
                  Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                  Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                  "Never pet a burning dog."

                  RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                  http://www.sca.org
                  http://www.scv.org/
                  http://www.scouting.org/

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                  • #10
                    I have a co-worker who served as a FO with the NATO force back in those days. When excatly I'm not sure. He did mention that when the Croats launched their offensive, that they didn't care about civilians or military, as long as they were Serbian in the Krajina enclave, the Croats wanted it back.

                    I'm of the opinion that all sides did commit atrocities during those dark years of the Balkan war. Which did the most? The most terrible? Again, it depends on:

                    1. What is considered an atrocity;
                    2. Who participated into it;
                    3. Who is reporting it.

                    There are still a few Bosnian Serbs wanted by the Hague and the UN is procrastinating as usual to make the arrests. Why? Afraid of restarting a war or just plain afraid to rock the boat.

                    From the first link:

                    However, the whole object of "Operation Storm" was to "ethnically cleanse" all Serbs from the Krajina region of Croatia, the same kind of war crime for which Slobodan Milosevic and other defendants have been charged by the tribunal. The main difference is that without U.S. military aid and technology, "Operation Storm" may not have been successful.

                    And let's not forget the 45 year sentence to General Tihomir Blaskic for his share in atrocities committed in Bosnia during the "dirty war" in 1993 between Croats and Moslems. One of the counts in the verdict was Blaskic's responsibility, as military commander in central Bosnia, for the Ahmici atrocity where dozens of Moslem civilians, including a seven-year old child, were burned alive in their homes.

                    Hope I'm answering your questions/comments.
                    http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dannybou


                      I'm of the opinion that all sides did commit atrocities during those dark years of the Balkan war. Which did the most? The most terrible? Again, it depends on:

                      Gen Lew Mackenzie , in his book "Peacekeeper: The Road to Sarajevo" states that both sides even went so far as to fire on their own people and blaming it on the other side in the hopes of scoring a propaganda coup. This was proven by ballistic testing in an incident where 67(?) people were killed when a mortar round slammed into a crowded market in Sarajevo.

                      "Trusted Mole" by Milos Stankovic supports these claims also.
                      Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                      • #12
                        Thanx! Am reading up on it!:thumb:
                        "To know the weapons the enemy has is already to beat them!"

                        http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-photo-vf213-01l.jpg

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tigersqn
                          This was proven by ballistic testing in an incident where 67(?) people were killed when a mortar round slammed into a crowded market in Sarajevo.
                          Interesting, when I was briefed by the commander of IFOR (I was supposed to brief him, but he turned it around on me since he knew far more than I did!), he told me that he has positioned a Q37 radar that detected that round being fired from Serb artillery positions. I tend to believe a US 4-star that I know.
                          JS
                          Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                          Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                          "Never pet a burning dog."

                          RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                          http://www.mormon.org
                          http://www.sca.org
                          http://www.scv.org/
                          http://www.scouting.org/

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SGT Long
                            Are you just looking for current stuff? Otherwise,you could find volumes during WW2. Im told their activities made their German allies wince.
                            Yeah the current/recent stuff...

                            That reminds me...does anyone know that old WW2 movie about the Germans attempts to crush the Partisan Resistance in Yugoslavia? Can't figure the title but it had Yul Brynner and Franko Nero in it.
                            "To know the weapons the enemy has is already to beat them!"

                            http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-photo-vf213-01l.jpg

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hellodoggie
                              Yeah the current/recent stuff...

                              That reminds me...does anyone know that old WW2 movie about the Germans attempts to crush the Partisan Resistance in Yugoslavia? Can't figure the title but it had Yul Brynner and Franko Nero in it.
                              The Battle of the Neretva

                              http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/TheB...03/preview.php
                              http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

                              Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

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