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  • #91
    Originally posted by Massena View Post

    If you're not willing to present a cogent and fact-based argument, then Col Elting's comments have to stand. Col Elting's comments are based in his research and your unwillingness to read the book cited displays an unwillingness for useful discussion.

    It also clearly demonstrates an unwillingness to listen to anyone else's viewpoint which is ahistorical in nature and also a disdain for historical methodology and historical inquiry.
    They aren't based on anything. They're lies and idiocies. True historians like Glantz or Alexei Isaev show a completely different picture than the one presented by Elting.
    There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Emtos View Post

      They aren't based on anything. They're lies and idiocies. True historians like Glantz or Alexei Isaev show a completely different picture than the one presented by Elting.
      You haven't read the book have you? You cannot make a judgment historically if you have not read the material.
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Massena View Post

        You haven't read the book have you? You cannot make a judgment historically if you have not read the material.
        You quoted the paragraph. It's enough.
        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Emtos View Post

          You quoted the paragraph. It's enough.
          I don't think so. Context is everything and if you judge a book by one paragraph, especially if you disagree with it, then you are clearly demonstrating that you don't have any interest in history, only your version of it.

          Further, if you're going to reference the work of others, posting the title as well as the author would be helpful.
          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Massena View Post

            I don't think so. Context is everything and if you judge a book by one paragraph, especially if you disagree with it, then you are clearly demonstrating that you don't have any interest in history, only your version of it.

            Further, if you're going to reference the work of others, posting the title as well as the author would be helpful.
            If the author cannot get two paragraphs right, what expect from the rest ?
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Emtos View Post

              If the author cannot get two paragraphs right, what expect from the rest ?
              You haven't shown them to be incorrect, now have you? You've merely criticized without reading the book, or at the very least the particular chapter. That isn't the way to pursue historical critique. And the use of the term 'liar' is defamatory at best. And you haven't even attempted to prove it. Sorry, your comments and opinions are just plain nonsense.

              By the way, doesn't David Glantz have a bad habit in his books of inventing thoughts and feelings for the historical persons in his books and doesn't have a reference for them? That in itself is incorrect and a gross error, is it not?
              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Massena View Post

                You haven't shown them to be incorrect, now have you? You've merely criticized without reading the book, or at the very least the particular chapter. That isn't the way to pursue historical critique. And the use of the term 'liar' is defamatory at best. And you haven't even attempted to prove it. Sorry, your comments and opinions are just plain nonsense.

                By the way, doesn't David Glantz have a bad habit in his books of inventing thoughts and feelings for the historical persons in his books and doesn't have a reference for them? That in itself is incorrect and a gross error, is it not?
                They were shown as incorrect when the thread was discussed. They are shown as incorrect by a broad number of threads on WWII section of the forum. If the author cannot get a couple of sentences right, he hardly can make a book right.

                I didn't noticed that Glantz invented thoughts and feelings. Maybe he did, but it's just a minor footnote. For important things he has the references.
                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                Comment


                • #98
                  No, different opinions were expressed which is the way that historical discussions should be conducted. Personally attacking anyone with whom a discussion is being conducted is inappropriate.

                  If you don't agree with someone in a discussion, using the pejorative term 'lies' is not conducive to a 'civilized' discussion.

                  Using references in a historical discussion is a good practice and one I would recommend to you.

                  The study of history is not a democracy and a majority opinion may or may not be accurate or valid just because it is the majority opinion.

                  And sometimes long discussions get tedious and there also comes a point when continuing is counter-productive.

                  Needless to say, I don't agree with your suppositions and/or conclusions, and especially not with your opinions.

                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I use the terms which fit the best. If author writtes something opposed to the reality and which is known, he lies. Things should be called by their name.

                    My opinions are supported by documents and studies. Yours and Elting's are supported to nothing. It is called ignorance.
                    There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                    Comment




                    • We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • This is exactly the knowledge level of Elting and those who spport him...
                        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                          This is exactly the knowledge level of Elting and those who spport him...
                          How many of Col Elting's books have you actually read?

                          What do you know of his background and experience level?

                          Seems to me that 'not much' would be the answer.
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                            How many of Col Elting's books have you actually read?

                            What do you know of his background and experience level?

                            Seems to me that 'not much' would be the answer.
                            Your quote from his book :

                            From The Superstrategists by John Elting, pages 259-264:

                            ''Joseph Stalin,' Winston Churchill mused forebodingly in 1943, 'is an unnatural man. There will be grave troubles.''

                            Joseph Stalin was indeed unnatural, a bloody tyrant without ruth even for his own begotten children. God alone knows how many millions of inoffensive people he sent to death because they were inconvenient.'

                            '...the general level of Russian strategy [in World War II] was not impressive. It was certainly quick to take advantage of Hitler's tendency to shove his head into a sack; its greatest victories-Stalingrad...and Kursk...were won by taking advantage of such errors. Its other victories, however, were largely a matter of mass-throwing in hordes of men, tanks, and guns until something cracked or the attackers were used up...Stalin stressed the offensive, hounding his generals forward: One general who complained he needed more armored units was told 'my grandmother could have waged war with the help of tanks!' Always he insisted, 'Don't spare the men.'

                            'One of the few Americans who did gasp something of [Stalin's] essential character was General George C. Marshal: 'blunt as an old battle-axe that has seen many campaigns.' Marshall declared, 'I always thought they made a mistake in treating Stalin [like a western stateman]. He was a rough SOB who made his way by murder and everything else and should be talked to that way.'

                            Russian casualties in killed alone in the Finnish invasion in 1939 were at least 8 times that of the Finns (The West Point Atlas of American Wars, Volume II, Map 10 World War II).

                            Stalin, like many Russian heads of state before him, cared little how many men were lost in combat as long as the Russian strategic goals were met.


                            Something like this can be written only by a complete ignorant idiot. There is no option B.

                            There is no need to read something more to understand this.
                            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                            Comment


                            • You haven't read the book or any of Col Elting's work. And then you haven't seen his source material. That 'approach' to history and historical fact is ahistorical and not based on any type of historical methodology that I am familiar with or have been taught at the post-graduate level and before.

                              In short, it is disingenuous, ludicrous, and without substance or meaning from a historical perspective.
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                                You haven't read the book or any of Col Elting's work. And then you haven't seen his source material. That 'approach' to history and historical fact is ahistorical and not based on any type of historical methodology that I am familiar with or have been taught at the post-graduate level and before.

                                In short, it is disingenuous, ludicrous, and without substance or meaning from a historical perspective.
                                A couple of paragraphs is enough. The source material simply doesn't matter. It's like someone who says that the Earth is flat - his source material doesn't matter to understand his intellectual impotency. Same goes for Elting. This part of the text shows his complete idiocy and ignorance.
                                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                                Comment

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