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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cosmos View Post
    But just over the border in Salzburg, Austria they have reconstructed a Celtic village. http://www.salzburg.info/en/sights/e...illage_hallein
    and 20 miles from here there are remains of a large Celtic settlement. Closer in at Hochdorf there is an out door museum. On Lake Constance there is a reconstructed village built out over the water. Now if you consider that DNA you have a totally different opinion about what that is than I, among may others.

    http://www.tourmycountry.com/austria/bodensee2.htm

    http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/Barbar...hdorf_main.htm

    Sorry this is in German.

    lhttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidengraben
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cosmos View Post
      But just over the border in Salzburg, Austria they have reconstructed a Celtic village. http://www.salzburg.info/en/sights/e...illage_hallein

      Not surprising given that would be the heartland of Hallstatt culture.
      Boston Strong!

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      • #33
        Southern Germany, Bohemia and into Dacia was settled by Celts. Later German tribes moved in. The hard part is Dacia was settled by so many different types: Thracian, German, Celt, Scythian and so on.

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
          Southern Germany, Bohemia and into Dacia was settled by Celts. Later German tribes moved in. The hard part is Dacia was settled by so many different types: Thracian, German, Celt, Scythian and so on.

          Pruitt
          Depending on who you refer to, Julius Caesar stated that Dacia extended as far as the Black Forest in SW Germany. European history is so easy to follow.
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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          • #35
            Julius was not noted for his grasp of geography! He is the one that accused all Gauls of being Celts! Julius is best known for his grasp of the Latin language.

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
              According to recent DNA studies it looks like the vast majority of the population stayed exactly were they were and have one since before the bronze age.
              Which ones?

              The latest I have seen show a distinct gradient in Germanic markers east to west through Britain.

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              • #37
                The Belgae and other Eastern tribes are mentioned.

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                  The Belgae and other Eastern tribes are mentioned.

                  Pruitt
                  The Atrebates is one Germanic pre Roman Invasion tribe that springs to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrebates

                  The Belgae are the reason why GJC invaded Britain. He had heard that they had defeated the Britons and set up their own tribal area. Since he had just defeated the Gauls, he thought the Britons would be a pushover. Archaeology does show that continental influence had hit southern England recently before the Romans, but that this consisted of a new heavy plough and hedging in areas. The British army style, ie light cavalry and chariots, shows that the upper echelons were not continental Celt or Germanic in character. It can also be noted that the strengths of the dark age Bretons also lay in their cavalry, and perhaps could be said to be retaking their country in 1066, as part of the Norman Invasion.
                  How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                  Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                  • #39
                    Yes Nick, the Britons had Chariots. The horse in Briton has been described as a 'pony'. It took the Romans to introduce bigger and better horses. Horses in Gaul and Germany were also smallish. Both Chariots and Cavalry could dismount and fight as Infantry. British Infantry was poorly armed and the Britons realized early that to fight the Romans on foot invited defeat.

                    I would note that Gaullish and Germanic Cavalry tended to be from the nobility and was much better armed than the Infantry. Some Germans still used clubs! I like how Robert Graves described their spears as Assegai.

                    In sum, the Cavalry of the Britons were not that different than their cousins in Gaul and Germany.

                    Pruitt
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                      Yes Nick, the Britons had Chariots. The horse in Briton has been described as a 'pony'. It took the Romans to introduce bigger and better horses. Horses in Gaul and Germany were also smallish. Both Chariots and Cavalry could dismount and fight as Infantry. British Infantry was poorly armed and the Britons realized early that to fight the Romans on foot invited defeat.

                      I would note that Gaullish and Germanic Cavalry tended to be from the nobility and was much better armed than the Infantry. Some Germans still used clubs! I like how Robert Graves described their spears as Assegai.

                      In sum, the Cavalry of the Britons were not that different than their cousins in Gaul and Germany.

                      Pruitt
                      I would disagree on British cavalry.

                      Gallic and Germanic cavalry were shock troops. Britonnic cavalry and chariots were skirmishers. This is not to say they would not melee, given Caesars infantry problems when foraging and set upon by said cavalry, but British and early Breton cavalry acted more in the light role than shock role. This is why both Romans and Franks had trouble facing them, and often lost, eg Battle of Ballon 845AD.

                      It is the style of an army that often reflects its culture, since the army follows the needs of its government. If the Germanics/Gauls had conquered Britain, the army facing Julius would have been substantially different in character. A winning would not suddenly change to use that of a losers, and for many reasons.
                      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cosmos View Post
                        Wouldn't the Romans have mentioned something about that in their literature ? If it were true.
                        Perhaps, but one has to dig. Frequently Roman literture dimisses the Barbarians out of chauvanism towards the barbarians, or is of a propaganda nature providing a rational for removing the local leaders and displacing the landowners with settlers the Romans favored. Some of the conquored peoples the Romans admired & respected, others were mere savages unworthy of attention or comment.

                        A second factor here is the Catholic church of the lat Roman & post Roman Dark Ages was in competition with the remaining pagan cultures. That led to not preserving Roman documents that commented favorablly or in detail on the pagan cultures.

                        So the answer again is 'not much', and one has to carfefully consider what little Roman comment that has been preserved.

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                        • #42
                          Frisian???

                          Recalling my copy of 'The Mother Tounge' & other miscillany on the development of the English language it appears Frisian is the 'modern' German dialect or variation that is the strongest root of modern English. How exactly did that occur? Is 18th or 19th Century Frisian the contiental remnant of a broader Germanic variant in earlier times? That is related to the Jute, Saxon, Angle variations?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                            Recalling my copy of 'The Mother Tounge' & other miscillany on the development of the English language it appears Frisian is the 'modern' German dialect or variation that is the strongest root of modern English. How exactly did that occur? Is 18th or 19th Century Frisian the contiental remnant of a broader Germanic variant in earlier times? That is related to the Jute, Saxon, Angle variations?
                            The English language of earlier times (pre 1000 AD) was mutually intelligible with Norse, Danish & Jutish, Swedish, Netherlandish, Frisian and "German". After the introduction of Norman French the language diverted from its Germanic roots. Up until that time the British Isles had been invaded by all of the above (including Saxons and Vikings too) as had the intervening (including Frisia) lands. I would say the proximity of Denmark, Frisia and Northern England would be why English (especially North Eastern dialects) and Frisian are closely related.
                            The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson.

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                            • #44
                              Carl,

                              There are pockets of dialect all around Germany. Frisia was a coastal area around the Dutch islands and into the German coast. Remember Belgium also has Walloon speech that is close to Dutch. Interestingly there are two Slavic ethnic areas in the Brandenburg and Pomerania (Wends and Sorbs). I don't think Germans like the dialect spoke by Alsatians.

                              The French also used to have several dialects like Provencal. It was not until France and Germany formed large strong nation states that an 'official' dialect was imposed country wide.

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cosmos View Post
                                ... I would say the proximity of Denmark, Frisia and Northern England would be why English (especially North Eastern dialects) and Frisian are closely related.
                                Ok. I'll have to look at the book again & see if the similarites with Frisian are few or many. I do remember clearly the author wrote nothing about Frisian being similar to old Danish, Norse, ect... have to look that up elsewhere.

                                ...sound of cyber pages rustling...

                                Interesting. The charts in Wiki, Britanica, & others place English & Frisian closest together among the Germanic or specificly the West Germanic Languages. Modern Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish are placed among the North German group & some distinct difference are identified between those & the West Germanic group. However when I dig into the range of modern Frisian, and the extent of Old Frisian it is clear the language once extended north into modern Schislwig-Holstein & perhaps further north. Casting about a bit more I see this was the region the Angle warriors are suposed to have originated from in the 5th Century. Specifically in Schlesweg around the Schlei & Flensburger Forde or estuarys. Which are refered to as the Angeln district by Brittannica. In this area the modern North Fresian dialect or language survives among a few thousand people.

                                The Jute according to Britannica have no clear recorded history on the continent. Old Danish, German or English traditions has them coming from Jutland or modern Denmark, which is close to the area identified with the modern North Frisian language.

                                Saxons also originated in part from the modern Schlesweg region & further east along the Baltic coast. From the 5th Century the Roman records identify them as migrating south into modern German well as across the North Sea. The oldest written examples of Low German from the "Saxon" districts from the 9th Century show some clear relations ships to Old Frisian tho the movement away from that to modern Low German is clear as well. & reflected in later written text from the 10th-12th Centuries.

                                What all this suggests is something ancestral to Frisian, old English, & Lowland Scots must have been spread further across the south Jutland region than modern North Frisian, or that the Anglo-Saxon leaders recruited from further west along the North Sea coast.. ..perhaps both.
                                Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 23 Nov 12, 23:47.

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