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Triumph Forsaken: The Vietnam War, 1954-1965

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  • Redzen
    replied
    Originally posted by Redzen View Post
    Yes, those are good points. I can't understand how Moyar made such howlers. Everyone knows, for instance, that the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution began in the first half of 1966. And the Sino-Soviet split was due to ideological differences, particularly sharpened after Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalin in his "secret" speech to the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union on Feb. 25, 1956, as well as national border disputes.

    I am presently reading Moyar's Victory Forsaken, which I bought in charity op shop (U.S.: thrift store) for a couple of dollars. It is an interesting read so far.
    The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution began May 16th, 1966.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redzen
    replied
    Originally posted by lirelou View Post
    Well, Miss S, it's my day for being picky. Probably the cold I brought back from Utah. Anyway, regarding Moyar, overall a good speech, but I found some points erroneous or confusing:

    Moyar states that the Sino-Soviet split widened as a result of the war:

    Simplistic: The basis of the Sino-Soviet split lies in their border dispute over the Amur River territories, which were ceded to Imperial Russia under duress in 1858, 1860, and 1864, and which Lenin promised to return to China. The Sino-Soviet split can be traced to the 1950s, but it was definitely a fact by 1969 when Chinese and Soviet forces fought a series of border clashes in the region. "Widened" is a careful choice of words, but it could hardly have been widened by much given they were willing to shoot it out in 1969.

    Moyar states that the Cultural Revolution started 'shortly after U.S. withdrawal'.

    Erroneous: It started on 16 May 1966 and was winding down by the time U.S. troops had withdrawn from Vietnam. It officially ended on 6 October 1976 with arrest of the Gang of Four.

    Moyar states that the civil war in Cambodia led to the Vietnamese invasion.

    Confusing. The Cambodian Civil War started with the Lon Nol coup that overthrew Sihanouk in March 1970, and ended when the Khmers Rouges took power in April 1975. Are we talking about that Civil War and the subsequent Vietnamese (RVN) invasion of the sactuaries? I suspect not, given April 1975. Particularly since Khmer Serai and Khmer Krom forces armed and trained by the U.S. helped bring about that coup and subsequently fought the Khmers Rouges.

    However, after the 1975 Khmers Rouges victory, relations with Vietnam degenerated over Cambodian claims to the Mekong Delta and cross border incursions by Khmers Rouges troops into Vietnam, where they massacred any locals they found, the most notorious of which were the Ba Chuc massacres of April 1978. By this time purges within the Khmers Rouges ranks had put several Cambodian leaders on the Vietnamese side, and with the arrival of the dry season in December 1978 the former NVA launched an invasion, overthrowing the Khmers Rouges and installing Hun Sen in power in January 1979, leading to another civil war by holdout factions of the Khmer Rouges before Vietnam withdrew from Cambodia ten years later. I suspect that this is the Cambodian Civil War Moyar is referring to, as it came about after our withdrawal, but its roots go back to our own history there.

    Otherwise, a pretty good speech.
    Yes, those are good points. I can't understand how Moyar made such howlers. Everyone knows, for instance, that the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution began in the first half of 1966. And the Sino-Soviet split was due to ideological differences, particularly sharpened after Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalin in his "secret" speech to the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union on Feb. 25, 1956, as well as national border disputes.

    I am presently reading Moyar's Victory Forsaken, which I bought in charity op shop (U.S.: thrift store) for a couple of dollars. It is an interesting read so far.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miss Saigon
    replied
    Originally posted by lirelou View Post
    Well, Miss S, it's my day for being picky. Probably the cold I brought back from Utah. Anyway, regarding Moyar, overall a good speech, but I found some points erroneous or confusing:
    He didn't seem to be a comfortable public speaker and I attribute some of his errors, if not all of them, to that rather than him not knowing the facts. I noticed it what he said about the cultural revolution and immediately thought that it must be a speaking gaff, not a lack of knowledge.

    Leave a comment:


  • lirelou
    replied
    Well, Miss S, it's my day for being picky. Probably the cold I brought back from Utah. Anyway, regarding Moyar, overall a good speech, but I found some points erroneous or confusing:

    Moyar states that the Sino-Soviet split widened as a result of the war:

    Simplistic: The basis of the Sino-Soviet split lies in their border dispute over the Amur River territories, which were ceded to Imperial Russia under duress in 1858, 1860, and 1864, and which Lenin promised to return to China. The Sino-Soviet split can be traced to the 1950s, but it was definitely a fact by 1969 when Chinese and Soviet forces fought a series of border clashes in the region. "Widened" is a careful choice of words, but it could hardly have been widened by much given they were willing to shoot it out in 1969.

    Moyar states that the Cultural Revolution started 'shortly after U.S. withdrawal'.

    Erroneous: It started on 16 May 1966 and was winding down by the time U.S. troops had withdrawn from Vietnam. It officially ended on 6 October 1976 with arrest of the Gang of Four.

    Moyar states that the civil war in Cambodia led to the Vietnamese invasion.

    Confusing. The Cambodian Civil War started with the Lon Nol coup that overthrew Sihanouk in March 1970, and ended when the Khmers Rouges took power in April 1975. Are we talking about that Civil War and the subsequent Vietnamese (RVN) invasion of the sactuaries? I suspect not, given April 1975. Particularly since Khmer Serai and Khmer Krom forces armed and trained by the U.S. helped bring about that coup and subsequently fought the Khmers Rouges.

    However, after the 1975 Khmers Rouges victory, relations with Vietnam degenerated over Cambodian claims to the Mekong Delta and cross border incursions by Khmers Rouges troops into Vietnam, where they massacred any locals they found, the most notorious of which were the Ba Chuc massacres of April 1978. By this time purges within the Khmers Rouges ranks had put several Cambodian leaders on the Vietnamese side, and with the arrival of the dry season in December 1978 the former NVA launched an invasion, overthrowing the Khmers Rouges and installing Hun Sen in power in January 1979, leading to another civil war by holdout factions of the Khmer Rouges before Vietnam withdrew from Cambodia ten years later. I suspect that this is the Cambodian Civil War Moyar is referring to, as it came about after our withdrawal, but its roots go back to our own history there.

    Otherwise, a pretty good speech.

    Leave a comment:


  • Triumph Forsaken: The Vietnam War, 1954-1965

    A fantastic video from the Army War College of Mark Moyar talking about "Triumph Forsaken".


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