Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MP-40's in Indochina?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MP-40's in Indochina?

    Hi,
    Just came across some pictures of French use of the German MP-40 sub machine guns in Indochina. In fact, several photos show the weapon in use as late as the Algerian conflict! Any ideas how they got there?
    Thank you,
    P.N.

  • #2
    Parachute battalions rotating into Indochina often had to scrounge up the weapons they were going to fight with. In the case of the 3rd BCCP (Colonial Para-Commando Battalion), they managed to find a cache of MP-40s that had been kept by France as part of war reparations. And that is what they deployed to Indochina with. (Paul Bondroit, "3e BCCP Indochine 1948-50) Check ou the photo on p. 115.
    dit: Lirelou

    Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

    Comment


    • #3
      The French Army captured a lot of German hardware during its drive from the south of France in july 1944 into Germany in 1945 (French troops the were first to pay a visit to Hitler eagle nest at Berteschgaden while the 3rd US Infantry division captured the city).
      Mauser werk at Oberndorf was under french military control and produced/repaired various weapons for the French army until the factory was dismantled in late 1946 after Russian protests.

      The French army in Indochina post WWII was a poor man's Army, and many German weapon and ammunition stocks were used there together with the MP40, P08 & P38 handguns, Stg44 and G43 rifles mostly.

      In the 1945/1948 period there was a mix of British, German, US, weapons in service in the CEFEO.

      The MP40 were ditched as soon as a sufficient number of Mat 49 SMG was delivered (all the Mat 49 type 1 fabrication was sent out to the CEFEO in 1950).

      The G43 used as sharpshooter rifles had to wait for the delivery of the 1st batch of scoped Mas 49 in 1952/53.

      The STG 44 did not last very long and were out of inventory in 1948.

      The MP 40 was not in use anymore in the French Army at the time of the Algerian conflict (1956-1962), although the Warsaw pact Countries supplied them to the FLN (Algerian rebels armed and trained in Tunisia) together with 98K rifles, Stg 44 and MG42.

      kelt
      Last edited by kelt06; 23 Nov 10, 10:42.

      Comment


      • #4
        In 'AN ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO RIFLES AND SUB-MACHINE GUNS by Major Frederick Myatt M.C. the entry on the MP40 has a pic of a group of Vietnamese villagers with MP40s. The caption reads 'Civil Defense Guards in a South Vietnamese Village learn how to use MP 40 sub-machine guns, June 1962.

        The MP 40 was really just a heavy old stinker using jam prone single stack mags and firing a pistol caliber.
        MP 40 4.024kg compared to US .30 cal M1 carbine 2.48kg.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by eddie3rar View Post
          In 'AN ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO RIFLES AND SUB-MACHINE GUNS by Major Frederick Myatt M.C. the entry on the MP40 has a pic of a group of Vietnamese villagers with MP40s. The caption reads 'Civil Defense Guards in a South Vietnamese Village learn how to use MP 40 sub-machine guns, June 1962.

          The MP 40 was really just a heavy old stinker using jam prone single stack mags and firing a pistol caliber.
          MP 40 4.024kg compared to US .30 cal M1 carbine 2.48kg.
          The 32 rounds magazine of the MP40 was a double stack - central feed magazine, no more prone to jamming than others double stack mags.

          A single file magazine is less prone to jamming than a double stack, as an example the French Army used a 20 rounds single stack magazine with the Mat 49 for operations in sandy areas.

          kelt

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kelt06 View Post
            The French Army captured a lot of German hardware during its drive from the south of France in july 1944 into Germany in 1945 (French troops the were first to pay a visit to Hitler eagle nest at Berteschgaden while the 3rd US Infantry division captured the city).
            Mauser werk at Oberndorf was under french military control and produced/repaired various weapons for the French army until the factory was dismantled in late 1946 after Russian protests.

            The French army in Indochina post WWII was a poor man's Army, and many German weapon and ammunition stocks were used there together with the MP40, P08 & P38 handguns, Stg44 and G43 rifles mostly.

            In the 1945/1948 period there was a mix of British, German, US, weapons in service in the CEFEO.

            The MP40 were ditched as soon as a sufficient number of Mat 49 SMG was delivered (all the Mat 49 type 1 fabrication was sent out to the CEFEO in 1950).

            The G43 used as sharpshooter rifles had to wait for the delivery of the 1st batch of scoped Mas 49 in 1952/53.

            The STG 44 did not last very long and were out of inventory in 1948.

            The MP 40 was not in use anymore in the French Army at the time of the Algerian conflict (1956-1962), although the Warsaw pact Countries supplied them to the FLN (Algerian rebels armed and trained in Tunisia) together with 98K rifles, Stg 44 and MG42.

            kelt
            Caption reads:- French Troops leaving Tunisia, 1958.




            Comment


            • #7
              And heres one more.

              Comment


              • #8
                Kelt, how does the Mat 49 really compare with WW2, contemporary and more modern SMG designs? It saw service for over thirty years, so it must of been a good design, but there is just something about it that doesn't look right. It has a toylike appearance to it. But of course, it doesn't have to look good.
                ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have an old SEAL friend who owns a MAT49 in 7.62x25 and he likes that thing. Said it was lightweight, reliable, compact, and a very high rate of fire.

                  He also said it was originally a 9mm modified in VN or China. I haven't seen the weapon and have no idea of any markings that may be present.

                  I did question the underpowered 7.62mm pistol round but he shrugged that off. Apparently it will empty the 35 rd magazine in less than 3 seconds.

                  No stories whether or not he ever used it in combat but he did say it never left his side.
                  Skip

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by skiplc View Post
                    I have an old SEAL friend who owns a MAT49 in 7.62x25 and he likes that thing. Said it was lightweight, reliable, compact, and a very high rate of fire.

                    He also said it was originally a 9mm modified in VN or China. I haven't seen the weapon and have no idea of any markings that may be present.

                    I did question the underpowered 7.62mm pistol round but he shrugged that off. Apparently it will empty the 35 rd magazine in less than 3 seconds.

                    No stories whether or not he ever used it in combat but he did say it never left his side.
                    Apparently the communists converted the many MAT-49s left behind to the 7.62x25 caliber. It must have been an excellent weapon. I know Kelt will be able to point out any pros or cons of this weapon.
                    ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                    BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                    BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I imagine he will. I especially like the folding magazine well that, apparently, also folds with a magazine inserted.

                      Seems like one helluva little popgun to me.
                      Skip

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The 7.62x25 is not really an underpowered cartridge. It has somewhat poor stopping performance on people mostly due to over penetration (steel cored ammo will penetrate body armor up to modern level II-not bad for a pretty old cartridge). The NVA/VC armorers were quite adept at converting various arms to use more common Comblock supplied ammo. I have heard of M1911's converted to 7.62x25 as well as Arisakas converted to 7.62x39. Converting a 9mm to .30 Tokarev is not too difficult as the cartridge dimensions aren't too far appart (unlike going from a .45 ACP to 7.62).

                        I am always interested in how quite a bit of old hardware continues to hang on in the oddest places.
                        45B10 1986-91

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I've owned a Type 54 for 25 years and have never been able to find a source of steel core ammo in the US. If my CRS memory is correct, that stuff is considered AP.
                          Skip

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, the steel core stuff is considered AP. Apparently, some of the Czech stuff imported several years ago was steel core but I haven't seen any available (though I haven't looked too hard as I believe it is high pressure SMG ammo and is unhealthy for my Tok).

                            even the lead core bullets will penetrate a 2a vest @ a distance of 10'- http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm.
                            11.8 inches (after defeating a vest) recovered bullet diameter 0.46"
                            45B10 1986-91

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hobo9 View Post
                              Caption reads:- French Troops leaving Tunisia, 1958.
                              Sorry to disappoint you, but in 1958 Tunisia had been an independant state for two years, The French Army was long gone and had only retained a Navy base on the Mediterrannean coast at Bizerte near Tunis.

                              The pictures from Life magazine show Légionnaires in standard desert dress, most likely men from a CSP (compagnie saharienne portée) In the Algerian deep south, there is no way to date these pictures, if any French troops still had MP 40 in the late 1950s it would have been the Foreign Legion regular units based in the Sahara and usually poorly equipped by French standard, the dodge 6x6 appear of the old WII model and not the "powerwagon 24V" model in use then.

                              Your third picture is from Indochina, the horned beast doesn't look like a camel !

                              kelt

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X