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Indochina 1945-1954

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  • #46
    Altus, I have never read of the incident in any French source, though a pen-pal of mine, COL (then 1st Lt) Jacques Jaubert was captured on the RC 4. Trinquier recounts making the acquaintance of a VM officer in "Le Temps Perdu", but then turning him over to the French for execution as a "rebel". By the way, finished "The OSS and Ho Chi Minh: Unexpected Allies..." just today, by Dixee R. Bartholomew-Feis. Well worth the read. I did not know that Archimedes Patti's archives are an hour's drive from where I presently reside. I'll have to drive over and look at them.I'll begin Marr's book tomorrow.
    Monocone. Ig die afrikaans-taal gestudiert maar nieuw Ig praat niets. Maar het kopje waar die zoon (Bernard) van die general De Lattre gedood gewast zijn Rocher Notre-Dame' genaamt. (Hopefully, that is understandable and will not get me indicted in Pretoria for massacring Afrikaans.)
    dit: Lirelou

    Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by lirelou View Post
      By the way, finished "The OSS and Ho Chi Minh: Unexpected Allies..." just today, by Dixee R. Bartholomew-Feis. Well worth the read.
      Agree. It's very good. Many unique pictures and drawings. The cartoon instructing Vietnamese to help American pilots is said to have been hand drawn by Ho Chi Minh himself.

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      • #48
        Lirelou.
        Gracias por la respuesta!
        Saludos,
        A prayer's as good as bayonet on a day like this!

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        • #49
          Just a question.
          Where can I find a list of the french military operation of each year?
          What about the combat operation AFTER Dien Bien Phu?
          There were a lot of days until the cease of fire, but the articles ends with DBP.
          Thanks,
          A prayer's as good as bayonet on a day like this!

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          • #50
            Any of you might know what is considered the first French aircraft lost in the First Indochina War (1945 onward)?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by altus View Post
              Any of you might know what is considered the first French aircraft lost in the First Indochina War (1945 onward)?
              Got a feeling it might have been Japanese. Am I right?

              Mick

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Chippymick View Post
                Got a feeling it might have been Japanese. Am I right?

                Mick
                Quite possibly. But I don't know which one was that first one, thus the RFI. I want to cross-check Vietnamese claims in mid-1946.

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                • #53
                  I've got "Vietnam The War In The Air" by Rene J. Francillon. Unfortunately its in storage. I read it years ago (maybe 10 years ago) and seem to recall that the first Aircraft pressed into service by the French were Japanese. Followed shortly by de Havilland Mosquitoes.

                  The clever chaps at Pprune will know. I'll go and ask.

                  Cheers

                  Mick

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Chippymick View Post
                    the first Aircraft pressed into service by the French were Japanese. Followed shortly by de Havilland Mosquitoes.
                    That I know. It is also known that many of these Japanese aircraft were in poor condition, plus French crew were generally unfamiliar with them, which resulted in many of them crashing. I just don't know which one is considered the first lost to enemy fire, and whether it was one of those Japanese-made.

                    The clever chaps at Pprune will know. I'll go and ask.
                    Please do. I'll be much obliged.

                    Thanks,

                    Altus

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                    • #55
                      Monocone, The most comprehensive account off the military operations of the First Indochina is supposed to be Yves Gras' "La Guerre d'Indochine", a 500 plus page history published by the Societe de Production Litteraire back in the 70s or 80s. I have only seen it once and perused it, but that would be the only work that attempts to track all the battles. The best overview with any details is Jean-Pierre Pissardy's "Paras d'Indochine", also published by SPL, but as it title suggests, covers only the battles involving parachutists. It is a two volume set and does have annexes of maps and tables of all the combat drops in volume II. For an overall view, the Chronology below may be of help. Scroll down to the page below “principal events”. First rate overall chronology, it very briefly outlines battles and campaigns, but only rarely gives names of battles. More easily understood by someone intimately familiar with the geography of Indochina.

                      http://amtstirailleur.free.fr/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=66
                      dit: Lirelou

                      Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì!

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                      • #56
                        Altus

                        The word on the street at Pprune is:

                        "The first combat related loss by the French occurred on the 19th of January, 1950. It was a Bell P-63C of G.C. 2/5. The aircraft was shot down during a mission against Thai-ngyuen."

                        I've re-asked the question focusing on 1946.

                        Cheers

                        Mick

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Chippymick View Post
                          Altus

                          The word on the street at Pprune is:

                          "The first combat related loss by the French occurred on the 19th of January, 1950. It was a Bell P-63C of G.C. 2/5. The aircraft was shot down during a mission against Thai-ngyuen."

                          I've re-asked the question focusing on 1946.
                          Thanks a lot, Mick! However, I have a feeling that some observer (bi)planes might have been shot down earlier but didn't make it to the widely known records for some reason. We have a sort of a eyewitness account of an incident in August 1946 when one such a plane was said to be shot down in Cochinchina, and two bodies of Caucasian pilots were found. Unfortunately no information on the aircraft model is available.

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                          • #58
                            Again this could be a case were it may never be verified.

                            If a plane doesn't come back. What happened? Did it run out of fuel? Was the fuel contaminated? Did it fly into a cloud that had a rock in it? Did the french pilot know the Japanese placard for carb heat? Was it shot down by someone with a Kar98 who had a good day?

                            Plenty of variables in aviation.

                            Could Vietnamese shoot down light aircraft with small arms? Bloody oath they could. I can think of a number of instances where bird dogs were downed by rifle fire. Anything flying low and less than 100 knots was fair game. It's definately doable.

                            I'll have my house finished by February and get all my books back. I'm confident the loss would have been recorded by Francillon.

                            Cheers

                            Mick

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                            • #59
                              I'm interested in the official name lineage of the French forces in Indochina from 1945 to 1956.

                              My understanding is as follows:

                              * up to 1945 - Forces Expéditionnaires Françaises d'Extrême-Orient(FEFEO)

                              * 1945 - 1956 - Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, (CEFEO), which lasted until 1956, when it became dissolved.

                              The problem is, the following two appellations appear to have also been in use:

                              Troupes Francaises d'Extrême-Orient (TFEO)
                              Forces Armées d'Extrême-Orient / Forces Armées en Extrême-Orient (FAEO) or
                              Forces Armées Françaises en Extrême-Orient (FAFEO)

                              So, which one is the correct, official name? Did the latter ones officially replace the 'CEFEO' at some moment? Or did they refer to something different?

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                              • #60
                                Mostly something different, but interrelated

                                Altus, I am unable to address the full subject today, but the overall command was the CEFEO, whose commander was the theatre commander in chief (De Lattre, etc) He had a joint staff, most of whom were Army Officers filling two functions. This was the EMIFT (Etat Majeure Inter-Armes et Forces Terrestres). One of these subordinate general officers, most likely his Deputy, was designated the commander of the Forces Terrestres Extreme-Orient FTEO). Below the FTEO were five regional Army commanders responsible for fighting the war in their perspective Indochinese states. The most important of these was the FTNV (Forces Terrestres du Nord Vietnam) whose commanders (Salan 1951/2, Linares, and Cogny in FTNV) fought the war up north. They were supported and sustained by a parallel command structure that paid, fed, armed, equipped, and clothed the troops, recruited Indigenous personnel for Suppletif positions, and performed various other important base or "territorial" functions. The "Forces Armees d'Extreme Orient" (FAEO) was the overall territorial type command covering all of Indochina. Thus when General De Lattre wished to recruit a corps of Vietnamese Commandos, to be cadred by a small number of French (and Legion) volunteers, it was created based upon a "note de service N. 290/FAEO/ORG", which laid out the organization, weapons, pay, ration system, and sustenance for what were to become the "Commandos", operating under the control of FTEO through the FTNV FTCA, and FTSV. The FTEO's homologue command was the ARVN High Command, whose suppletive companies were organized and trained under the direction of the Mission Militaire Francaise (MMF). These suppletive companies could be transferred from the ARVN into the FTEO, as happened on 27 February 1951 when seven CLSM companies them were transferred to various French armored units as "reconnaissance commandos" (Note de service N. 420, EMIFT/1 and N. 465 EMIFT/4, 27 fevrier 1951). Hope this is not "as clear as mud".
                                dit: Lirelou

                                Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì!

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