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Indochina 1945-1954

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  • July 1954 - outskirt of Hanoi



    Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

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    • French Navy's Indochinese flotilla's Bassin de l’Arsenal d’Indochine à Saïgon - late 19th century:



      Vietnam People's Navy's Ba Son Naval Shipyard - 2015:



      [Shinhan Bank of Korea/Bank of America/Vietcombank/Australia-New Zealand Bank/Credit Agricole] Ba Son Business Center - approx. 2022:

      Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

      Comment


      • 1950 near the border to China

        from left to right: Phạm Văn Đồng, Trường Chinh, Nguyễn Chí Thanh, Hồ Chí Minh, Trần Canh, Lê Văn Lương, La Quư Ba

        Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

        Comment


        • Remains of French forts near Hanoi











          Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

          Comment


          • somewhere near the border to China



            sitting from left to right: Phạm Văn Đồng, Erwin Borchers (aka Chiến Sỹ), Ernst Frey (aka Nguyễn Dân), Vơ Nguyên Giáp, Đặng Bích Hà

            standing: Lưu Văn Lợi, unknown, unknown, Rudy Schröder (aka Lê Đức Nhân)



            Dương Bạch Mai, Ernst Frey (Nguyễn Dân), Trường Chinh, unknown, Georges Wächter (Hồ Chí Thọ), Rudy Schröder (Lê Đức Nhân)

            from the German newspaper Zeit.de:

            http://www.zeit.de/2004/11/A-Indochina/komplettansicht
            Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

            Comment


            • Hanoi Hilton under French management



              Emperor/LtCol Duy Tan's last photo before his departure from the Central African Republic via Paris to Vietnam



              A young Tran Van Tra during the Indochina War

              Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

              Comment


              • French missionaries in Saigon in 1948.

                During the Colonial era the Catholic Church enjoyed de-facto protection of the French authorities. After the Communists' victory all missionaries were banned from the North in 1956 and in 1976 from the South. Several hundred-thousands left the North after a successful fear-campaign by the US intelligence services.

                The Catholics in Vietnam were largely cutoff from the rest of the global community - except for some minor aid & advice through the Catholic Church's parishes in Switzerland. Since the reform-era the Catholic Church has returned with full-force and is a valued contributor to Vietnam's progress. While no official diplomatic relations exist, there are regular high-level talks between Hanoi and the Holy See.





                1955 - Prime-Minister Diem visits a refugee-camp in Binh-Dinh a few weeks before deposing Emperor Bao Dai as Head of State in a rigged referendum.




                1957 - President Diem and American dignitaries visit a Montagnard-tribe near Ban Me Thuot.


                1955 - Southern Vietminh and their families heading for the North.


                1958 - Southern refugees graduates from an All-Girl High-School in Hai-Phong. For a few years there were a few high-schools in Northern Vietnam with teachers speaking the Southern dialect.
                Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

                Comment


                • Bratwurst, exactly what does "... the Catholic church enjoyed the de-facto protection of the French authorities" mean in practical terms? Particularly considering that during the French colonial period, the relations of the French government to the Catholic church in France underwent significant changes. I.e., from Empire to Republic, to a secular Republic, and even an anti-Catholic United Front period, all of which should have had its impact in Indochina.

                  Now, during the late colonial period, there was friction within the Vietnamese Catholic Church over the pay and privileges of the foreign missionary clergy, over that the native clergy (which outnumbered the foreign clergy). There were also issues with the forms of address between the two groups, and the lack of meaningful promotional opportunities for native clergy. The Vatican, however, to action to address this last issue by appointing the first Vietnamese bishop on 1933. Since then over 100 Vietnamese priests as been elevated to the office of Bishop, and at least on Cardinal. http://vietcatholic.net/News/Html/71049.htm

                  Simply put, the Church embarked on decolonization before the French government did.
                  dit: Lirelou

                  Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

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                  • Originally posted by Bratwurst View Post

                    Lang Son, 1950

                    Morroccan soldiers saluting their CO



                    Is the CO the one on the left sitting on the road? If it is, he doesn't look that interested.
                    Last edited by Redzen; 08 Oct 17, 23:30.
                    在魔鬼和深蓝色的海洋之间. 悪魔と深海の間. Carpe hunc diem.

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                    • America had the chance to back Ho Chi Minh but was too short-sighted to do so, and not smart enough - except for Kennedy - to avoid getting involved in an Asian war.

                      JFK said is best: wrong war, wrong place, wrong reasons.
                      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                      Comment


                      • Speaking of Indochina, does anybody know what those black holes are for in the gun pits of this French base there in 1954? I don't know myself-


                        I sent the pic to the Royal School of Artillery (Larkhill,England) a couple of years ago asking if they knew what the holes are for, and this was their guess-

                        "Dear Sir,
                        Thank you for recent enquiry regarding the holes depicted in the Vietnam gun position. Whilst I am unable to give an official or authoritive answer, I have canvassed opinion amongst a number of personnel within the school and the general consensus is as that suggested by the RA Museum, viz personal protection for gun crew from incoming fire. It is believed the holes would have been mechanically drilled hence the regular size.
                        Regards,
                        David Geddes
                        Admin Manager
                        HQ RSA"

                        Comment


                        • Reference the photo, those are Berbers from one of the Tabors (Battalions) from the Moroccan Tabor Group. The Berber tabors were provisional battalions built around village militias called "Goums" The members of the Goum were "Goumiers". Since Morocco was a protectorate, rather than a colony, the French would ask them to provide a certain number of units, and the Moroccan government would call them into service. The 8th Moroccan Tirailleurs were were also present along Colonial Route 4 when this photo was taken. They, however, were professional Arab troops in French service, On this date they armed with Lee Enfield rifles rather than the MAS 36, and their headgear was a lighter tan colored "cheche" (shesh in some English spellings) wrapped tightly around their head. Both the Tirailleurs and Goums/Tabors had served under US 5th Army in the Italian campaign, and were reputed to be good mountain fighters. Unsure who the officer is as both LTC Le Page, commander of the Provisional Moroccan Tabor Group (Brigade) and the Majors commanding the Tabors would have been wearing the Colonial Infantry dark blue overseas caps (Calots) with an anchor on it. Nor is it COL Constans, the North African Army (Armee d'Afrique) officer who commanded the Sector as well as the 3rd Foreign Legion Regiment. (Note: Constans was not regarded as a proper "Legion" officer.). His face is rounder and his Kepi was dark blue.
                          Last edited by lirelou; 10 Oct 17, 19:14. Reason: delete repetitive line
                          dit: Lirelou

                          Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

                          Comment


                          • America had the chance to back Ho Chi Minh but was too short-sighted to do so, and not smart enough - except for Kennedy - to avoid getting involved in an Asian war.

                            JFK said is best: wrong war, wrong place, wrong reasons.
                            And exactly how could the US have backed Ho Chi Minh? Prior to 1945, no American had ever heard of Ho Chi Minh. Roosevelt did not want the French to return to Vietnam, but even before his death he had backed off of that, given that neither the British nor the Dutch were giving up any ideas of holding on to their Asian colonies. Add to this the fact that the end of WWII in France found the Communist and Socialist Parties at the height of their popularity, at the very same time the Cold war was developing. Roosevelt, and Truman who at war's end found himself embroiled in a test of wills with the French Provisional Government. were hardly pro-French. Truman branded De Gaulle a Psychopath. Still, the US had a stake in keeping France from going Communist. OK, so Ho Chi Minh sent a few telegrams to the White House, where they arrived with thousands of other telegrams. One, in early 1946, asked the US to intervene militarily, to prevent the French from landing in North Vietnam (Haiphong). Imagine that. And the French were underway from southern Vietnam. How on earth could the US have intervened in time? And, guess what? Within a few days, HCM was dealing with the French, laying down conditions under which they could enter Tonkin, because he was desperate to get the Chinese out. They were supporting the VNQDD, a non-Communist nationalist party alone the lines of the Chinese KMT. But, none of HCM's telegrams evidence any staffing between the While House, State, or War (Defense as of 1947). They were simply filed away. It wasn't that our leadership was short sighted. Quite the contrary. The problem was that they couldn't read the future. There was no "Twilight Zone" they could step into and see American in 1965.

                            JFK may have been right, but American public opinion didn't see it that way at the time.
                            dit: Lirelou

                            Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                              And exactly how could the US have backed Ho Chi Minh? Prior to 1945, no American had ever heard of Ho Chi Minh. Roosevelt did not want the French to return to Vietnam, but even before his death he had backed off of that, given that neither the British nor the Dutch were giving up any ideas of holding on to their Asian colonies. Add to this the fact that the end of WWII in France found the Communist and Socialist Parties at the height of their popularity, at the very same time the Cold war was developing. Roosevelt, and Truman who at war's end found himself embroiled in a test of wills with the French Provisional Government. were hardly pro-French. Truman branded De Gaulle a Psychopath. Still, the US had a stake in keeping France from going Communist. OK, so Ho Chi Minh sent a few telegrams to the White House, where they arrived with thousands of other telegrams. One, in early 1946, asked the US to intervene militarily, to prevent the French from landing in North Vietnam (Haiphong). Imagine that. And the French were underway from southern Vietnam. How on earth could the US have intervened in time? And, guess what? Within a few days, HCM was dealing with the French, laying down conditions under which they could enter Tonkin, because he was desperate to get the Chinese out. They were supporting the VNQDD, a non-Communist nationalist party alone the lines of the Chinese KMT. But, none of HCM's telegrams evidence any staffing between the While House, State, or War (Defense as of 1947). They were simply filed away. It wasn't that our leadership was short sighted. Quite the contrary. The problem was that they couldn't read the future. There was no "Twilight Zone" they could step into and see American in 1965.

                              JFK may have been right, but American public opinion didn't see it that way at the time.
                              The same way we backed the French. Read the history.

                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                              Comment


                              • The same way we backed the French. Read the history.
                                Au contraire, mon cher Ami, I have read the history. The war started in December 1946, and we signed up to back the French AND the Associated States, who were also signatories, in 1950, with our first shipment of military support arriving in January 1951, when the war was going into its 5th year. Prior to that, our contribution was nada, zip, zero.
                                dit: Lirelou

                                Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

                                Comment

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