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  • When You find yourself...

    in jungle like this, how to do navigate? (<-----edit to add: You'd think I never spoke English before)

    I mean, How do you navigate?



    Being from Arizona we have a lot of wide open space to pick out landmarks. When you can't see any more than 20' in any direction how is navigation possible? Who's duties would it be to stay found? In other words, what were the procedures for traveling around in terrain like pictured?

    Wal
    Last edited by Half Moon; 11 Apr 10, 22:11.
    "Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers...can you see how incredible this is going to be...hang gliding? Come on! "
    -Dignan

  • #2
    Map, compass, pacing (count) with adjustments based on course deviation, EXPERIENCE, and flat arz GUESSING or CONSENSUS seems to come to mind.

    THIS WAS A VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS; YOUR ARZ DEPENDED ON KNOWING WHERE YOU WERE!

    Who's duty was it...
    Always the responsibility was on the shoulders of the "in charge person". If Squad Patrol, the Squad Leader. If Platoon Patrol, the Platoon Leader and so on. As a Leader you would normally have 2 or more folks to track the pacing.


    P.S. Daylight wasn't to bad - NIGHT TIME was a bitch!


    Last edited by KEN JENSEN; 11 Apr 10, 14:29.
    1st ID, 1/28th '67/'68 Phouc Vinh & Quan Loi
    Skirmishes Bu Dop Dec-67, An My, Thu Duc Feb-68
    Plt. Ldr - CIB, Purple Hearts, Silver Star
    What we write can be considered to be a reflection of our SOUL providing others to know our CHARACTER.

    Comment


    • #3
      Check the US Army's Field Manual 3-25.26 Map Reading and Land Navigation.

      The bit about jungle terrain:

      http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../ch13.htm#par3

      Comment


      • #4
        map, compass, and understanding and reading contour lines on the map
        after awhile you have a good feel for how far you travel in 10min, 30min, 1hr, etc. over different types of terrain
        and sooner or later you will be in a clearing where you can see other hills that you can shoot azimuths to to triangulate your position

        you had better learn how to read the maps and figure out where you are or you wont be able to call in arty when you need it !!
        you also have to know how to use the mil grid to call in arty - north from the base/latitude lines and east from the longitude lines

        to note: I'm a licensed USCG boat captain and a kayak fisherman. I hang out on a kayak fishing website called TexasKayakFisherman.com This is a little navigation article I wrote to help the guys out fishing on their kayaks
        http://www.texaskayakfisherman.com/a...navigation.php
        Last edited by CaptJack; 11 Apr 10, 19:51.
        Vietnam - Co.A 3/21, 196th Light Infantry Brigade
        Austin "Little Colony" Bastrop 1830 - Republic of Texas
        NRA - Lifer

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        • #5
          Originally posted by KEN JENSEN View Post
          Map, compass, pacing (count) with adjustments based on course deviation, EXPERIENCE, and flat arz GUESSING or CONSENSUS seems to come to mind.
          Been there, Done that. In jungle so thick that I had to navigate the lead APC inside using a compass. We found our objective, a stream crossing, as I told the driver I figured that we were about there, we fell off the bank into the stream. It took three APCs to pull us out. We broke the drive axle and three torsion bars during the fall off the bank.


          Originally posted by KEN JENSEN View Post
          P.S. Daylight wasn't to bad - NIGHT TIME was a bitch!
          That and running into a nest of hornets while on forced return patrol in pitch black darkness in the jungle. It was so dark the only thing visible was the florescence on the compass and the reflective tape on the back of the helmet.
          “Breaking News,”

          “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

          Comment


          • #6
            So you know where you start out, and then keep jotting down notes on any changes? Then double check your accuracy as soon as practical?

            In the instance of a squad, the squad leader is the main navigator?

            Do jungles absorb a lot of the sound of bushwacking, macheteing? I mean how far does sound, smells travel?

            I've been in woods, and used topos and maps but never inside someplace that looks like the photo.
            "Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers...can you see how incredible this is going to be...hang gliding? Come on! "
            -Dignan

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Half Moon View Post
              So you know where you start out, and then keep jotting down notes on any changes? Then double check your accuracy as soon as practical?
              Most note taking while on patrol was visual/mental. Constant "double checking" was the norm.


              In the instance of a squad, the squad leader is the main navigator?
              Not necessarily - normally the best capable one/two. However Squad Leader was the one responsible.


              Do jungles absorb a lot of the sound of bushwacking, macheteing? I mean how far does sound, smells travel?
              Yes thick jungles absorb sound. In thick jungle, maybe 20 or 30 mtrs would be about the distance non-explosive sound would travel. For us "ground pounders", "bushwhacking" and talking was always kept at a minimum while on patrol. If the chit was to thick to go through with body weight, then we would go under, over, or around. Machete hardly ever used on patrol - it was a work tool to clear LZ's, NDP's and/or fields of fire. The Machete made to much of a distinct noise that was a definite "man made noise".

              heeheehee, of course non of the above is true (for sounds) in the middle of a monsoon!


              Last edited by KEN JENSEN; 11 Apr 10, 23:52.
              1st ID, 1/28th '67/'68 Phouc Vinh & Quan Loi
              Skirmishes Bu Dop Dec-67, An My, Thu Duc Feb-68
              Plt. Ldr - CIB, Purple Hearts, Silver Star
              What we write can be considered to be a reflection of our SOUL providing others to know our CHARACTER.

              Comment


              • #8
                Gosh, you mean we were suppose to know where we were?

                Yep, good old compass and topo map were the 2 tools. GPS had not even been dreamed about yet.

                Of course what none of the guys told you about above was that some of the topo maps were not very accurate, to say the least.
                "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by trailboss49 View Post
                  Gosh, you mean we were suppose to know where we were?

                  Yep, good old compass and topo map were the 2 tools. GPS had not even been dreamed about yet.

                  Of course what none of the guys told you about above was that some of the topo maps were not very accurate, to say the least.

                  Half Moon.

                  I've done a fair bit of it and it does tend to focus the mind.

                  You need a Good map, a good compass, a tally counter and an intuitive grasp of maths.

                  I always deliberately aim off to hit a feature like a creek or a ridge and when you get there you know you have to turn left or right to get to where you meant to be.

                  When you get a chance you verify where you are using the 'triangle of errors'. Rainforest navigation is all error, it is just a matter of ameliorating them.

                  Of course jungle navigation was a lot easier in Vietnam, when you got geographically embarassed you could just get on the radio and 'pop smoke' when a proper navigator turned up overhead.

                  In truth, navigation in a military sense is actually way much harder. I only have ever had the need to get from point A to point B. You can choose what you 'THINK" might be the easiest route, a luxury in itself.

                  Militarily, if you need to search a grid, well first you have to get there and then you have to get around it, with the constant prospect of someone who wishes you ill around the corner. I'm glad I never had to do it.

                  Regards

                  Mick

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by trailboss49 View Post
                    Yep, good old compass and topo map were the 2 tools. GPS had not even been dreamed about yet.
                    I doubt a GPS would work properly in this scenario, that's why the "old" methods are still learned and practiced today.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Half Moon View Post
                      So you know where you start out, and then keep jotting down notes on any changes? Then double check your accuracy as soon as practical?

                      In the instance of a squad, the squad leader is the main navigator?

                      Do jungles absorb a lot of the sound of bushwacking, macheteing? I mean how far does sound, smells travel?

                      I've been in woods, and used topos and maps but never inside someplace that looks like the photo.
                      1. Notes jotted down were mental.

                      2. The squad, platoon leader had the topo map which were usually a combo of arieal photographs, landmark markings, and topo elevation lines.

                      3. Sound and smell travel was dependent on the type and density of the foliage as well as the weather conditions. Also, the sudden change of the activity of the wildlife, all of their calls, and chatter, could be a dead giveaway to your or enemy movement.

                      Whacking at the bush was mostly hard work and wasted effort. What slowed you down most was the fish hook thorns and tangles of some of brush near wet areas. They would caused ripped clothing, nasty scratches, and in one case, several casualties when a hooked thorn caught a grenade pin and pulled it out. Then, there were the red ants, scorpions, poisonous snakes, and leaches.

                      You took the easy way, trails, open areas, at your own pearl. That is where the booby traps and ambushes were usually set up.

                      Last edited by SRV Ron; 13 Jul 17, 05:51.
                      “Breaking News,”

                      “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        everybody that went through infantry school took and was supposed to have passed the land navigation class

                        and the term you were thinking of is "dead reckoning"
                        Vietnam - Co.A 3/21, 196th Light Infantry Brigade
                        Austin "Little Colony" Bastrop 1830 - Republic of Texas
                        NRA - Lifer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Never happened to me, but I heard some of the old Mobile Guerrilla hands from III Corps talk about terrain so uniform and featureless that at times they had to have the FAC pinpoint their location by firing a flare up through the canopy. Sort of an early form of GPS.
                          dit: Lirelou

                          Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

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                          • #14
                            I'm getting a much, much clearer mental image of patrolling that I never had before. It's like saying, "I've driven fast on the freeway in heavy traffic before so I can imagine what it's like being a nascar driver." In reality the two aren't even close. While reading all of your posts my points of reference have diverged so much, that now that I have a clearer understanding, I can see that a professional patroller vs someone who just doesn't want to get lost in the woods are worlds apart. Chippy's comment, "...it does tend to focus the mind " says a lot.

                            The amazing thing about internet forums is that sometimes a question will garner a ton of replies and an ounce of information. What I find here though, is the opposite. It's amazing what you can learn from people who know what they're talking about.

                            Thank you very much.
                            Wal
                            "Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers...can you see how incredible this is going to be...hang gliding? Come on! "
                            -Dignan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Now you why in the Special Forces Selecdtion Course, teams have to navigate over rough terrain within a specified time, accomplishing some difficult task that requires team skills. In the Delta Selection Course, you have to do tha same, as an individual, over one of the roughest pieces of terrain in the United States. And, in the latter, you never know how much time you have.
                              dit: Lirelou

                              Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

                              Comment

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