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  • Lt. General Hal Moore vs Maj Winters

    While I was at work today, I watched We Were Soldiers with Mel Gibson. Though this is not the first time I have seen the movie and nor will it be the last; for some reason I was really moved by his story today. I have several questions open for discussion. After Ia Drang, what operations was he involved in and did he go back to Vietnam for a second tour? I know this can be answered by reading his book. I would also like to pose a hypothetical . I know this may rile some BOB direhards out there, but I do believe that General Moore was a better battlefield tactian than Major Winters. Lets open the topic up for discussion. Maybe if it is good enough, I can get my first sticky thingy.
    Govenour Of Texas and all southern provinces. Kepper Of The Holy Woodchipper.

  • #2
    Re: Lt. General Hal Moore vs Maj Winters

    Originally posted by jdscott7280
    While I was at work today, I watched We Were Soldiers with Mel Gibson. Though this is not the first time I have seen the movie and nor will it be the last; for some reason I was really moved by his story today. I have several questions open for discussion. After Ia Drang, what operations was he involved in and did he go back to Vietnam for a second tour? I know this can be answered by reading his book. I would also like to pose a hypothetical . I know this may rile some BOB direhards out there, but I do believe that General Moore was a better battlefield tactian than Major Winters. Lets open the topic up for discussion. Maybe if it is good enough, I can get my first sticky thingy.
    I never got around to finishing the book - it's in my car somewhere. But from what I recall, when he asked to be involved in some later operations he was told that "he'd had his chance" and that was that.

    (No doubt if I finish the book it will reveal how wrong I am!)

    Re' your second point, he did seem to have more of a "philosophy" behind his actions. What I mean is that Winters was playing by pre-established rules, I'm not knocking him for that, but Moore kind of helped formulate the rules for a new type of warfare. So yeah, I'd go with what you said.

    Dr. S.
    Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

    www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

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    • #3
      Moore was a general and Winters a major so I dont think you can really compare the two, Deferent levels of responsability. plus two different types of warfare.

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      • #4
        Proir to his heading off to the 1st Cav Hal Moore was stationed in the DC area where I had the honor of being in a scout troop that he was scoutmaster of for a couple of years. Went to Philmont with him, he was an incredible, inspirational leader who always put his men above himself.

        The movie of course left out the whole last third of the book where Gen Moore examines a the actions of a sister unit that was badly mauled immediately after his extraction.Basically they took the enemy for granted and were caught clumped up in company groups on a road with all the officers up forward with the CO. Things rapidly went from bad to worse.

        Don't know the details of his subsequent Vietnam service. I do remember starkly a couple of news stories at the time about a unit being pinned on a hill and asking for reinforcements. They flew in Moore. He extracted the unit but only after having to call down artillery dirctly on their position while they exfiltrated. I will never forget the assinine reporter asking him how he felt about calling artillery on his own men as he steped off the helicopter.

        What Moore's book demonstrated was the importance of units being rotated in tack, training together and being withdrawn for extended retraining when significant attrition has occured. The army never learned that lesson in Vietnam so after the first rotation the units were made up of inexperienced recruits, rapidly promoted who had never trained together and generally did not know each other. Such an approach made diaster inevitable. There is nothing more dangerous in war than a politician who has never led men in combat.
        Boston Strong!

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        • #5
          Reporters In Vietnam

          I wasnt even born yet, but I have seen several pieces of footage where the reporters acted like asses in heat of battle. Joe Galloway was a superb reporter. I wonder if he won the pulitzer for the stuff he did? Is the gentleman still alive? The reporters should have been curtailed or at least embedded like they were in iraqi freedom
          Govenour Of Texas and all southern provinces. Kepper Of The Holy Woodchipper.

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          • #6
            HArd Choice...Considering these men fought different types of tactics
            "Send Me"

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            • #7
              Re: Reporters In Vietnam

              Originally posted by jdscott7280
              I wasnt even born yet, but I have seen several pieces of footage where the reporters acted like asses in heat of battle. Joe Galloway was a superb reporter. I wonder if he won the pulitzer for the stuff he did? Is the gentleman still alive? The reporters should have been curtailed or at least embedded like they were in iraqi freedom
              Joe Galloway was still alive on the 20th of April 2004 when he wrote an article here:

              http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwash...ay/8477362.htm

              http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

              Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

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              • #8
                In the debate of Moore vs. Winters, I believe I would proud to serve under either one of them. Winters was more of a conventional commander, but an excellent one nonetheless. As has been previously stated, Moore was developing tactics for a new type of warfare, one with extreme mobility and firepower.

                Also, as far as I know, Hal Moore was not able to return to Vietnam after his initial tour ended. He did wind up commanding the 7th Infantry Division in Korea in the early 70s. His last job, before he retired in 1977, was at the Pentagon.
                "Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for"
                "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by foster
                  Moore was a general and Winters a major so I dont think you can really compare the two, Deferent levels of responsability. plus two different types of warfare.
                  Not only that, your comparing a professional from West Point to a war time officer.
                  Lance W.

                  Peace through superior firepower.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Re: Reporters In Vietnam

                    Originally posted by dannybou
                    Joe Galloway was still alive on the 20th of April 2004 when he wrote an article here:

                    http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwash...ay/8477362.htm

                    Sorry to hear about the passing of Mrs. Moore. In her own way she was as brave or braver than her warrior husband. Its good their story was told while she was still around.
                    Lance W.

                    Peace through superior firepower.

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                    • #11
                      Moore and Galloway

                      i also beleive Galloway is still alive. He has a good webiste.

                      Following Ia Drang, Moore was promoted to the command of the the 3rd Brigade.
                      The Ia Drang also has a great website.

                      There is a VHS "Vietnmam a Soldier's Story" which is disapponting from a battle pespective but is great to see many of the combatants interviewed.

                      Moore was promoted to Commander of the 3rd Brigade. He was invoved in a major search and destroy mission originally named Masher but changed to White Wing at the insistence of President Johnson, who thought Masher gave the wrong connotation.

                      If I remember correctly, the operation jumped off folowing Tet of '66 and included 20,000 U.S., Vietnamese, and Korean soldiers.

                      The first major batle was near Bong Son. John Laurence's book, "The Cat from Hue" has an unusaul take on the operation.

                      Moore was refused a second tour, commanded the 7th Infantry Division in Korea, was commanding general at Fort Ord and retired after serving as the Army's Deputy Chief of Staff for personnel.

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                      • #12
                        Enlisted men in Vietnam could volunteer to return again and again. At least until "Vietnamization" reduced the number of men required. At which point the E ranks started to be denied additional tours too.

                        It was different with officers. From the very beginning the Pantagon was of the mindset that the war would be over quickly and they wanted to give as many officers as possible experience in the combat zone. Thus the very brief rotation policy.

                        Hackworth wrote about this too. He begged, cajoled, and inveigled to get a second combat tour.

                        The easiest way to get a second combat tour for an officer was to do an advisory tour, but a lot of the officers didn't want to do this, and many didn't believe it would be good for their career.

                        The fact that Moore didn't get a second Combat tour despite his success was not unusual. It was just another of those quirks about the VN war. The wisdom of which we still debate today.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Miss.Saigon View Post
                          Enlisted men in Vietnam could volunteer to return again and again. At least until "Vietnamization" reduced the number of men required. At which point the E ranks started to be denied additional tours too.

                          It was different with officers. From the very beginning the Pantagon was of the mindset that the war would be over quickly and they wanted to give as many officers as possible experience in the combat zone. Thus the very brief rotation policy.

                          Hackworth wrote about this too. He begged, cajoled, and inveigled to get a second combat tour.

                          The easiest way to get a second combat tour for an officer was to do an advisory tour, but a lot of the officers didn't want to do this, and many didn't believe it would be good for their career.

                          The fact that Moore didn't get a second Combat tour despite his success was not unusual. It was just another of those quirks about the VN war. The wisdom of which we still debate today.
                          Vietnam WAS Moore's second combat tour. He was an Infantry company commander in the 7th Infantry Division during the Korean War.
                          "The blade itself incites to deeds of violence".

                          Homer


                          BoRG

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                          • #14
                            .

                            NEVER FORGET



                            MOORE-GALLOWAY Redux:

                            http://www.ArmchaIrGeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=66978



                            NEVER FORGET
                            Signed: "ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer / Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965, LZ Falcon

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JeffRosenf View Post
                              i also beleive Galloway is still alive. He has a good webiste.

                              Following Ia Drang, Moore was promoted to the command of the the 3rd Brigade.
                              The Ia Drang also has a great website.

                              There is a VHS "Vietnmam a Soldier's Story" which is disapponting from a battle pespective but is great to see many of the combatants interviewed.

                              Moore was promoted to Commander of the 3rd Brigade. He was invoved in a major search and destroy mission originally named Masher but changed to White Wing at the insistence of President Johnson, who thought Masher gave the wrong connotation.

                              If I remember correctly, the operation jumped off folowing Tet of '66 and included 20,000 U.S., Vietnamese, and Korean soldiers.

                              The first major batle was near Bong Son. John Laurence's book, "The Cat from Hue" has an unusaul take on the operation.

                              Moore was refused a second tour, commanded the 7th Infantry Division in Korea, was commanding general at Fort Ord and retired after serving as the Army's Deputy Chief of Staff for personnel.

                              .

                              NEVER FORGET



                              The only General Officer to be killed at the Pentagon on 911 was a successor occupant of the same military command position desk Lt. Gen. HAL G. MOORE last held before retiring from the U.S. Army.

                              Source:

                              Mrs. JULIE MOORE to ALOHA RONNIE Guyer, just two months later-IA DRANG Alumni Association Reunion-Veterans Day Weekend-Washington, D.C.


                              Photos-IA DRANG, BONG SON Operations:

                              http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_collection.htm
                              http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_set1.htm
                              http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_set2.htm
                              http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_set3.htm



                              NEVER FORGET
                              Signed: "ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer / Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965, LZ Falcon

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