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  • Originally posted by ALOHA RONNIE View Post
    .

    How very intersting that we now see someone from a now Communist Vietnam using the very same Vietnam War photos as propoganda that the American Media used during the Vietnam War in order to bring defeat on a once Free South Vietnam..?
    Simple answer: the Vietnamese was at war with the American Admin at the time and fighting shoulder to shoulder with them were those well informed American civilians. It was wrong for the USA to creat the American War (as it is known) in Vietnam. Yes, it is an immense crime and it is now admitted that the Gulf of Tonkin incident that triggered the war did not happen at all.

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    • Originally posted by trueNfair View Post
      Simple answer: the Vietnamese was at war with the American Admin at the time and fighting shoulder to shoulder with them were those well informed American civilians. It was wrong for the USA to creat the American War (as it is known) in Vietnam. Yes, it is an immense crime and it is now admitted that the Gulf of Tonkin incident that triggered the war did not happen at all.
      What triggered the war was the North creating an insurgency in the South. The crimes that the United States committed pales in comparision to what the communists did. And those 'well informed people' you refer to such as Hanoi Jane Fonda are some of the most dispised people in the United States. They bought into the lies that the North spewed. The United States abandoned its allies in the South because people bought into the idea that one American soldier was not worth the price of saving South Vietnam. Our honour is not stained by fighting the North; it was stained by us abandoning the South to a pack of worthless lies written on a piece a paper the North never had any intention of honoring.

      And for the record; my dad did three tours with the USAF in the conflict. He never questioned the reasons and never did I then or now. For what it's worth....I feel like I owe Miss Saigon and every other South Vietnamese a personal apology.
      Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

      "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

      Calling Nazis ratzis is an insult to rats around the world.

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        • Originally posted by trueNfair View Post
          Simple answer: the Vietnamese was at war with the American Admin at the time and fighting shoulder to shoulder with them were those well informed American civilians. It was wrong for the USA to creat the American War (as it is known) in Vietnam. Yes, it is an immense crime and it is now admitted that the Gulf of Tonkin incident that triggered the war did not happen at all.
          Welcome, BUT YOU ARE WRONG!!!! If the North respected the South and had left them alone, the whole damn war wouldn't have happened. Ho and Giap had no intentions of having free elections either. That's why communist agents were in the South to organize opposition. We were invited to South Vietnam by the government. The North was not. I don't care what language we speak on this earth, the one who throws the first stone or raises tensions by words or other actions is to blame. Somewhere in this Vietnam thread is a youtube clip of Giap admitting they had no intention of allowing free elections in the North. THEY JUST DON'T DO THAT! That's why there is still no free elections there.
          The sad part is the government there now still lies and deceives the people. trueNfair, I fought there and I personally witnessed the crimes of rape, slaughter, and mutilation that VC and NVA regularly inflicted on their own countrymen. Don't ever try to make it sound like the North were or the communists today with their disgusting treatment of montagnards, we the innocent guys.

          D1
          "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
          - Col. David Hackworth

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          • Originally posted by RichardS View Post
            What triggered the war was the North creating an insurgency in the South. The crimes that the United States committed pales in comparision to what the communists did. And those 'well informed people' you refer to such as Hanoi Jane Fonda are some of the most dispised people in the United States. They bought into the lies that the North spewed. The United States abandoned its allies in the South because people bought into the idea that one American soldier was not worth the price of saving South Vietnam. Our honour is not stained by fighting the North; it was stained by us abandoning the South to a pack of worthless lies written on a piece a paper the North never had any intention of honoring.

            And for the record; my dad did three tours with the USAF in the conflict. He never questioned the reasons and never did I then or now. For what it's worth....I feel like I owe Miss Saigon and every other South Vietnamese a personal apology.
            You should be proud of your dad. He was a soldier serving his country and for that he did the right thing not questioning why he was in the wrong place for the wrong reason. Of course it was not his decision to go to war with Vietnam. In fact, for arguement sake, we need to rise beyond personal emotion and only look at "Fact & Figure".

            Pre-WWII, Vietnam (in singular) was invaded by the Frenches who sucked every drop of blood out of the country. Then came the Jap althougth they made the Frenches a proxy goverment to rule Vietnam for them and thus free up their man-power for the Pacific war against you guys. Yet during this time, Ho felt that he could rely on the American to gain independence for his country. The VietMinh (precursor of VC) joined Allied forces, rescuing down American pilots and brought them back to safety. Their contribution was pretty small and was largely ignored later on by both sides. However,given the fact that they had nothing in hand except bravery, every single down pilot they rescued showed their strong conviction in a free and prosperous Vietnam.

            WWII ended, the Jap surrendered. The VietMinh although without significant military power, captured the opportunity and decleared independence for Vietnam. It was the first colonised state that regained independence by itself and without foreign interference. Seeing a limitation of the newly independent Vietnam in its military power, Ho Chi Minh cleverly cited the American's independence speech of Washington. He hoped the Americans (back then were avocating for the abolition of colonialism) would support its Allies. He was wrong.

            Instead of coming to its aid, the Americans simply turned a blind eye, and allowed the Frenches to return to Vietnam. Without external support, the VietMinh suffered terrible loses. Now it was the ignorance of the USA that forced Vietnam to ally herself with China and Russia. And her relationship with the Americans turned south since then. By the end of the French war (as it is known in Vietnam), the USA started financing almost the entire war effort for the Frenches. Without options, Vietnam became a commie state. It was then forced to take on the USA by the falsified "Gulf of Tonkin incident" that gave Johnson a legitimate excuse to send American soldiers to fight the Vietnameses.

            Those who were bombed had never done any harm to the USA (apart from rescuing some down pilots for them!), they had never even seen the Americans before. They wanted a free and prosperous country. They wanted to live in peace. On the other side of the Pacific, a group of people thought that they could bring peace to Vietnam by bombing her. They were wrong! But Richards, people like your dad and the poor Vietnames suffered!

            In most Vietnameses, seeing how the country suffered under foreign rule (1000 years under the Chineses, 100 years Frenches), nothing was more precious than independence and freedom. Despite the USA emormous military power, the humble Vietnameses with help from all around the worlds (including many American themselves) won the war as we all know now.

            Richards, now it is time you review your feeling. It is my conviction that you owe all the Vietnameses (there has always been only one Vietnam) an apology for not helping it out pre 1954 and for what had happened in Vietnam during the war. It was a wrong war!

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            • Originally posted by DeltaOne View Post
              Welcome, BUT YOU ARE WRONG!!!! If the North respected the South and had left them alone, the whole damn war wouldn't have happened. Ho and Giap had no intentions of having free elections either. That's why communist agents were in the South to organize opposition. We were invited to South Vietnam by the government. The North was not. I don't care what language we speak on this earth, the one who throws the first stone or raises tensions by words or other actions is to blame. Somewhere in this Vietnam thread is a youtube clip of Giap admitting they had no intention of allowing free elections in the North. THEY JUST DON'T DO THAT! That's why there is still no free elections there.
              The sad part is the government there now still lies and deceives the people. trueNfair, I fought there and I personally witnessed the crimes of rape, slaughter, and mutilation that VC and NVA regularly inflicted on their own countrymen. Don't ever try to make it sound like the North were or the communists today with their disgusting treatment of montagnards, we the innocent guys.

              D1
              Okey, then prove me wrong with solid evidence. Show me the evidence of what you witnessed.

              Originally posted by DeltaOne View Post
              Ho and Giap had no intentions of having free elections either.
              Unfortunately, this is not what we would call fact or history. What you are saying only reflects your perception. I am not saying it is wrong or right. But it is beyond the point we are discussing here.

              Comment


              • RGA – Only a few of those photos you posted show specific examples of Allied abuse or brutality. Fair play on the South Vietnamese leaflet about destroying villages, the POW being kicked, the man being buried and the involvement in Cambodia.

                However some show a POW with hands tied and given a cigarette, hardly an example of brutality. Same with the guys who are blindfolded and hands bound. There is no context – unless you are saying something else happened afterwards. Similarly you show the bodies of people killed in combat – are you saying they were murdered after surrendering, because all it shows is that war and death are horrible.

                I find it interesting that you posted a photo of the body of a dead VC in Hue. Are you also aware of the mass graves that were found in that city? I am curious as to what your stance on the war crimes of the North Vietnamese and VC forces is – do you believe they happened, are exaggerated, were criminal and cruel but necessary or have never heard of them? To be talking only of one side’s responsibility for this kind of thing is a major misreading of basic historical fact. There are things you could point out about the Allied conduct of the war, and some of those I would probably agree with you on. However selectively choosing things from one side in a war, while totally ignoring what the other did is misleading and unfair.
                "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                G.B Shaw

                "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

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                • I think this is a good reminder that the other side also owns the war.

                  trueNfair, as you probably can tell, my perspectives is very different from yours, as is my interpretation of the events of the Vietnam War. Nonetheless, welcome to the forum. Hope to hear more from your side of the story.

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                  • Originally posted by trueNfair View Post
                    ...... nothing was more precious than independence and freedom.
                    We can blame each other and point out many errors made by all governments and solve nothing.

                    To both you TrueNFair, and your buddy RGA. Just how good is that FREEDOM concept working out for you.

                    We in the good old U.S.A enjoy our FREEDOM so much we would like to have folks like you also come into the fold. We feel that if most countries had the FREEDOMS equal to ours the concept of war may be ended.

                    Take a hard look at North and South Korea as an example. One dominated by Communist rule and the other ruled with FREEDOM concepts.

                    AGAIN HOW IS YOUR CONCEPT OF FREEDOM WORKING FOR YOU?

                    KEN
                    DO NO HARM
                    1st ID, 1/28th '67/'68 Phouc Vinh & Quan Loi
                    Skirmishes Bu Dop Dec-67, An My, Thu Duc Feb-68
                    Plt. Ldr - CIB, Purple Hearts, Silver Star
                    What we write can be considered to be a reflection of our SOUL providing others to know our CHARACTER.

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                    • Firstly, I want to ask you: Why are the "freedom countries" like USA and UK also the countries which start the war? We have war in Yugoslavia, Afganistan, Iraq, and in the future, perhaps Iran, too. Who started those wars? It's USA and UK. And what do the people in those countries have? They are still poor, they are still hungry. Their houses were destroyed by US bombs, their relative were killled by bombing. Is it the cost of what so-called "Freedom"?

                      You keep comparing our country with Korea. Do you know that South Korea hat 50 years to build their country, with remarkable advantages, while we have only 30 years. OK, I'm not an economy expert, but let's see:

                      - As I said, the South Korea hat more times than us.

                      - Assume that the conditions of 2 countries after the war are the same (in fact, we have 5 millions people died in the war, while the Korea, approximately 2 millions). After the war, while the South Korea took part in no conflicts, we must fight against the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and China. And we must also maintain an ernomous army, while the South Korea had a much easier task due to the apparance of US Army. Everyone knows, how expensive an army is. Hundreds thousands men must stay in the army, and we were always lack of worker.

                      - After the war, the South Korea received the great help of America to build their economy. And we, the important allied of us, China, became enemy, and the USSR had their own economy problems and could do little to help us.

                      However, we are very proud of what we have done in 30 years. Vietnam's economy is one of the fastest-advancing economies, and the living standard is much improved. For example: 5 years ago, the computer is still a dream, and now, almost all students have one.

                      And some words about the American Freedom. I know, it's a tabu, and of course I will be criticized, but at least, let me show my opinion.

                      - The first thing I see, is that your social hat people who vastly richer than others. Some of them, like Paris Hilton knows nothing but the expensive party, expensive clothes, expensive trips. I'm really surprised if they know how difficult people must do to produce those they use.

                      - You said that, you can even say that, the president is a criminal. But to what? If he is not a criminal, it's pointless to say that. And you can say that, you disagree with the government. But whay can you change? For example, many people disagree with the war (in fact, no one likes the war, doesn't it?). And why does any President of USA start at least one war?

                      - In your social, you can do whatever you want. OK, but everything is not always good. You can curse your mother, you mustn't live with your father, but simply send him to some Camps, where he live the rest of his life with other miserable old men. Children can see porno films in Internet, because no one prevents it. So, where is the so-called "morality"?
                      Everyone hat freedom, but those freedom must obey the tradition and morality.

                      - And if you have freedom, you reluctantly accept the freedom of another countries. Iran is not allowed to develope the civil atom energy, while USA ht right to produce atom bombs. Vietnam is not allowed to choose the socialist. Palestine people are not allowed to have their elected government, HAMAS, because this government is against the USA's allied: Israel.
                      "My only desire is that all of our Party and people, closely united in struggle, construct a peaceful, unified, independent, democratic and prosperous, and make a valiant contribution to the world Revolution" - Ho Chi Minh's will

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KEN JENSEN View Post

                        Just how good is that FREEDOM concept working out for you.

                        We in the good old U.S.A enjoy our FREEDOM so much we would like to have folks like you also come into the fold. We feel that if most countries had the FREEDOMS equal to ours the concept of war may be ended.

                        Take a hard look at North and South Korea as an example. One dominated by Communist rule and the other ruled with FREEDOM concepts.

                        AGAIN HOW IS YOUR CONCEPT OF FREEDOM WORKING FOR YOU?

                        KEN
                        DO NO HARM
                        You have a pretty good point Ken! The state of post-war economy of Vietnam was a mess and I could not agree more with you. I also recognise that this is mostly due to mismanagement by the commie party of Vietnam and that shortly after the war, the VN goverment has rapidly transformed itself from a clean, nationalist and pro-people into a corrupted one. In short, 75-92 was the darkest period of the contempory VN. (It is quite alright now with serious efforts against corruption and the economic engine steaming ahead). Okey, now let us put this in a context:

                        1./ My point was that VN has fought and won an unwanted war. It was the super power USA that dictated the game and it was her who made a series of unjustified errors that costed a few millions Vietnamese and 50K American lives. This would be adverted if you guys told the Frenches to get on with their "Freedom Fries" and leave VN alone. I bet you my house to the donut hole that VN would not become a commie state (but more likely a neutral one).

                        2./ In addition to what I pointed out early on, let's also remember that the entire infrastructure of Vietnam was bombed to rubble thank to American war machine.

                        3./ The trade embargo imposed by the USA.

                        4./ Last but not least and rather an important point: it is not realistic to make a comparison between two states or two events in the history. It is pointless to compare Vietnam and Korea. The South Koreans are hard working and they know how to use every opportunity for their advantage. They deserve a prosperous life. Good on them! The commie North K is actually not bad given their circumtance. They have nuke (or at least be in a position to claim so) and thus have a decent bargaining power against the USA. Wheather or not they (the NK) is an evil regime is beyond the point here.

                        Now Ken, how about we look a bit closer to Vietnam, let's talk about the Phillipines once a colony of the USA. No embargo, no war, infrastructure intact. In short, much better condition than VN and yet, few months ago Manila was rocked by a fail coup and terrible state of ecomomy.

                        -----------
                        PS: we all know to well now that freedom is not free.

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                        • Originally posted by RGA View Post

                          And the last picture is a propaganda from the South Vietnam



                          The first words are: "If there are any VC hiding in the village..."
                          and the last ones: "Your village will be destroyed..."
                          I thought RGA has an excellent post here. This cartoon was an exemplary mindset of the USA Administration back then and perhaps the current one:

                          "You are either with us or with the enemies" (George W Bush http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpPABLW6F_A )

                          Let me emphasize that most Vietnameses particularly those of working class were VCs or VC supporters. So would you bomb them all or be self-conscious enough to recognise that you should get out and leave them alone.
                          Last edited by trueNfair; 28 Jan 08, 07:35.

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                          • Originally posted by trueNfair View Post
                            1./ My point was that VN has fought and won an unwanted war. It was the super power USA that dictated the game and it was her who made a series of unjustified errors that costed a few millions Vietnamese and 50K American lives. This would be adverted if you guys told the Frenches to get on with their "Freedom Fries" and leave VN alone. I bet you my house to the donut hole that VN would not become a commie state (but more likely a neutral one).
                            Nothing is much farther from the truth tNf, the Second Indochina War was started by the Politburo in Hanoi in 1959 when they decided to create the NLF and infiltrate men and materiel in South Vietnam, the idea of America being the agressor in the Vietnam conflcit was a favorite propaganda theme during the War, but has since been acknowledge to be a myth, even by the vietnamese themselves.

                            Also, you idea that Uncle Ho was first and foremost a freedom fighter that chose communist because he had no choice is another false myth, Ho was a communist from the beginning and wanted a communist Vietnam under his rule and nothing else.

                            If you want to talk about agression, let examine the presence of North Vietnamese troops in neutral countries of Laos and Cambodia, what the northvietnaemse euphemistically called their "international duties".

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                            • Originally posted by trueNfair View Post
                              50K American
                              I believe that you're Vietnamese. It's not fake
                              "My only desire is that all of our Party and people, closely united in struggle, construct a peaceful, unified, independent, democratic and prosperous, and make a valiant contribution to the world Revolution" - Ho Chi Minh's will

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                              • Originally posted by Boonierat View Post
                                Also, you idea that Uncle Ho was first and foremost a freedom fighter that chose communist because he had no choice is another false myth, Ho was a communist from the beginning and wanted a communist Vietnam under his rule and nothing else.
                                OK, I've said already too much. Let's see what source I have. Wikipedia, can we trust it? A bit, OK !!!

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_...ourn_in_France

                                On 5 June 1911, Hồ Chí Minh left Vietnam on a French steamer, Amiral Latouche-Tréville, working as a kitchen helper...

                                In 1912, again working as the cook's helper on a ship, Hồ Chí Minh traveled to the United States...

                                At various points between 1913 and 1919, Hồ lived in West Ealing, west London, and later in Crouch End, Hornsey, north London...

                                From 1919-1923, while living in France, Hồ Chí Minh embraced communism, through his friend Marcel Cachin...

                                Following World War I, under the name of Nguyễn Ái Quốc (Nguyen the Patriot), he petitioned for recognition of the civil rights of the Vietnamese people in French Indochina to the Western powers at the Versailles peace talks, but was ignored. Citing the language and the spirit of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, Ho petitioned U.S. President Woodrow Wilson for help to remove the French from Vietnam and replace it with a new, nationalist government. His request was ignored.
                                So, what? In 1911, he was not a communist. Why did he leave his motherland?

                                Nothing is much farther from the truth tNf, the Second Indochina War was started by the Politburo in Hanoi in 1959 when they decided to create the NLF and infiltrate men and materiel in South Vietnam, the idea of America being the agressor in the Vietnam conflcit was a favorite propaganda theme during the War, but has since been acknowledge to be a myth, even by the vietnamese themselves.
                                The Geneva Conference was in 1954, why must we wait until 1959? Well, let me tell you a story:

                                In 1954, almost all of people, who fighted under the flag of VietMinh went to the North. Converserly, the French must withdraw all of its troops in the North to the South. But, there were still some people who didn't want to leave. There were 20 000 VietMinh people staying in the South. On one hand, they didn't want to leave, on other hand, we suspected the American. And in 1959, of these 20 000, only 2000 left. Do you know why?
                                To counter the brutal campaign of the South Vietnam government, at first we used only politic. And of course, we suffered heavily. In 1959, the Politburo realised that, we could no longer political struggle. We must act or die.
                                "My only desire is that all of our Party and people, closely united in struggle, construct a peaceful, unified, independent, democratic and prosperous, and make a valiant contribution to the world Revolution" - Ho Chi Minh's will

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