Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Civilian victims

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Civilian victims

    Hello!

    What do you think is realistic estimate of the civilian victims of the American forces in North Vietnam?

    Thanks for any info!
    Kind regards
    Igor

    * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
    * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
    * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

  • #2
    Originally posted by Egorka View Post
    Hello!

    What do you think is realistic estimate of the civilian victims of the American forces in North Vietnam?

    Thanks for any info!
    About one-tenth of one percent of what the communist North Vietnamese left behind in eviscerated bodies in the Republic of South Vietnam.

    The only civilian deaths would have been done due to bombing and it has been well documented the schools, hospitals, maternity wards, etc. that the communists stated were targeted was propoganda and not factual journalism. Call up your Vietnamese embassy in Moscow, I am sure they will be more than happy to give you a number.
    "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

    Comment


    • #3
      Very hard to tell, there's no real datas about the civilian casualties, but its probably much less than one might think. Operations LINEBAKER I & II, which were described at the time as barbaric carpet bombing campaigns, killed "only" 1,500 civilians by Hanoi's estimate.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think no one has a real number. From my perspective - who was the enemy and who was an innocent civilian??? That was the problem in the Nam. Old mama san who washed your clothes could also be a VC. The same applies to bombing villages and so forth. I believe it would be about 2-4% of the total that Hanoi claimed. Oh how the hippies/democrats loved those reports.
        "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
        - Col. David Hackworth

        Comment


        • #5
          Amen. half the time you didn't know who was friendly and who was vc. That same little old lady you'd see working in the rice paddy, is the same lady that would cut your throat at night if she had the chance. Not saying every civilian was like that. I'm just saying it was very difficult times.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by bpmoore24 View Post
            Amen. half the time you didn't know who was friendly and who was vc. That same little old lady you'd see working in the rice paddy, is the same lady that would cut your throat at night if she had the chance. Not saying every civilian was like that. I'm just saying it was very difficult times.
            True, but Egorka is asking about civilian losses in the North, not South.

            Comment


            • #7
              I read a book by a man who was involved in the post war compliance team in Hanoi after the 73 "peace agreement" (Sarcastic laugh). He reported the the city of Hanoi as being remarkably undamaged with the exception of the rail yards and a few military targets. Diplomats from Hungry and other East bloc nations subsequently reported similar. Precision bombing back then was only in its infancy, yet they still were very precise given the technology of the times.

              There was no carpet bombing of Hanoi. The 8th airforce knew how to carpet bomb. They had a lot of practice in World War II. It was a different war and time in Vietnam and they didn't do it.

              These myths about carpet bombimg are discusting. One B-52 could have done more than an entire WWII fleet of bombers If the US had carpet bombed Hanoi there wouldn't have been anything left but dust. Once again communist propaganda didn't match the reality on the ground.
              Last edited by Miss Saigon; 10 Oct 07, 11:19.

              Comment


              • #8
                Seeing how we targeted facilities/installation/transportation that WERE all linked to the war actions of the North, I believe that the vast majority of deaths were that of combatants and not civilians.
                It was the North who brought indiscriminant death the cities/towns/villages of the South.
                "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
                - Col. David Hackworth

                Comment


                • #10
                  It must be somewhere between 50,000 and 65,000 yes, most were civilians working on repairing damaged bridges, road and railroads.

                  There are some interesting figures about civilians casualties on that page:

                  Lewy:
                  36,725 civilians assassinated by VC/NVA, 1957-72
                  2,800 civilians executed and 3,000 missing after Hue was captured by VC/NVA, 1968
                  400 civilians massacred by USA in the area of Son My village, incl. 175-200 in My Lai hamlet, 1968
                  Because of the lack of weapons recovered from many bodies, Lewy considers the possibility that up to 222,000 VC KIA may have actually been innocent bystanders. (Or maybe not. Poor evidence either way.)

                  Harff & Gurr: 475,000 civilians in NLF areas were victims of repressive politicide, 1965-72

                  Young: Hue massacre, 1968:
                  Officially: 2,800-5,700
                  Len Ackland: 300-400

                  Chomsky (1987): 21,000 VC civilian officials assassinated under US/GVN Phoenix project (-in text. Endnote gives estimates ranging 40-48,000.). Lewy considers these to be (mostly) legitimate military targets.

                  October 22, 2003 Toledo Blade: Tiger Force (US) committed ongoing atrocities in Quang Nam province, July-Nov 1967. Incomplete records show 81 murders. The unit reported 1000+ enemies killed, but it sounds like a lot of those weren't legit. From the article details, I'd guess they murdered a few hundred (300) civilians. [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...RCE/110190169]

                  Hanson:
                  VN civilians k. by indiscriminate American bombing: 50,000
                  VN civilians k. by indiscriminate Communist rocketing, artillery and terrorism: 400,000

                  Rummel:
                  51,000 democides by South Vietnam (1963-75), incl...
                  executions: 30,000
                  forced relocations: 5,000 dead
                  prison deaths: 5,000
                  166,000 democides by NVN/VC in SVN:
                  Officials assassinated: 17,000
                  Civilians assassinated: 49,000
                  Refugees killed, 1975: 50,000
                  Misc: 50,000
                  6,000 democides by USA

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Don't you just love stats. "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.."
                    Sorry I don't think much of stats, Political Lies.

                    So what do you think about this:
                    I think is that it is funny that stats from all given sources of the other conflicts vary, 1 upto 100000 or more.
                    Now with the stats you quote
                    "North Vietnamese civilians: 65,000 (Kutler, Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky) by American bombing."
                    All these sources give the same figure, and a nice round figure it is.
                    So I can only assume that they all got this figure from the one source, guess who.

                    Any bombing or other act of aggression against civilians is terrible.
                    I would put a guestimate at several thousand but 65000 seems alittle high.

                    Thought
                    If a "civilian" participates in action of support to a military group is he or she still a "civilian" or an active unit?
                    I am not stuck in the 60's and 70's -I choose to live there :)
                    "Vision without action is a daydream. Action with without vision is a nightmare."

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      The REAL question is, "If you had these statistics in the first place then why did you ask?". I didn't see any Russians cited in your statistics but there were Soviet military 'advisors' who died while manning SAM missiles.
                      "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by trailboss49 View Post
                        The REAL question is, "If you had these statistics in the first place then why did you ask?".
                        The REAL answer is "I asked because I wanted a critical opinion about this number". Why else do you think?

                        I didn't see any Russians cited in your statistics but there were Soviet military 'advisors' who died while manning SAM missiles.

                        Call up your Vietnamese embassy in Moscow, I am sure they will be more than happy to give you a number.
                        Are you trying to provoke me for discussion?
                        Last edited by Egorka; 11 Oct 07, 06:41.
                        Kind regards
                        Igor

                        * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                        * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                        * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Tu Do View Post
                          All these sources give the same figure, and a nice round figure it is.
                          So what that it is nice and round?
                          The "UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY SUMMARY REPORT" quotes 305,000 civilian Germnas and 330,000 civilian Japanese in WW2.
                          Also nice and round. Should we dismiss it because of the roundness?

                          So I can only assume that they all got this figure from the one source, guess who.
                          I have no idea. Who?
                          Last edited by Egorka; 11 Oct 07, 06:42.
                          Kind regards
                          Igor

                          * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                          * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                          * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Chomsky? Oh my God did someone quote Chomsky?

                            Civilian deaths are a tragic consequence of war. On the other hand, a regime is supported by its population. The population supplies the revenue and man power for a regime to survive, even if they are only doing so because they were coerced.

                            I remember once in a class I had we debated who the innocents are in war? Are civilians innocent of the deeds of their regime? Of course, like most such subjects debated in college there are no clear answers.

                            Civilian deaths are a part of war. Some civilians support the policies of their regime and perhaps "deserve" to be bombed? Others not. But when the bombs fall even Sophie Scholl could be hit. Of course she knew it but wanted Germany defeated none the less.

                            The North Vietnamese government sponsored an insurgency in the Republic of South Vietnam and the People's Army of Vietnam Invaded the Republic of Vietnam. The South Vietnamese people had a right to defend themselves and ask their allies for support.

                            The North could have stopped the bombing at any time by pulling their forces out of South Vietnam. They are responsible for the bombing and any civilian deaths.

                            And they are also very lucky that different rules of engagement were in effect. Otherwise it would have been much worse. Just ask the Germans about how bad it can get for an aggressor nation.

                            My only sympathy goes to the poor North Vietnamese which were forced to support the policies of their government because they had no choice. After the collectivisation of agriculture in the North the Viet Minh probably lost the majority support they had enjoyed. Of course we will never know the real numbers because they were not able to speak freely and still are not.

                            But as I said, the Bombs fell on Sophie Scholl too. It is the nature of war.

                            When your home is attacked you are much more concerned about your own defense than the suffering of your attackers. The Russians should know something about this.
                            Last edited by Miss Saigon; 11 Oct 07, 12:15.

                            Comment

                            Latest Topics

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X