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Ken Burns Documentary: VietNam

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  • Originally posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
    Then be consistent.........The Vietnamese should have been allowed to determine their destiny without china and Russia also.
    Sadly the wishes of the Vietnamese people seemed to be a secondary consideration for everyone, including Vietnamese leaders themselves.
    Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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    • Originally posted by BF69 View Post
      Sadly the wishes of the Vietnamese people seemed to be a secondary consideration for everyone, including Vietnamese leaders themselves.
      That fact is very sad indeed.The loss of 58,000 americans is loudly proclaimed,yet seldom heard that over 200,000 south Vietnamese soldiers died......

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      • We may be getting closer to agreement on the issues. You seem to confuse my position. We both are saying that Nixon and Thieu wanted to stop the LBJ peace plan. We both agreed it was an act of treason to interfere with the sitting President's peace talks by the Nixon people. Can I assume you agree this act caused the prolongation of the War for several years?

        The rub that bother you appears to be that Nixon refused in 1968 to strong arm and offer sweet promises to Thieu so as to abandon the SVN govt. at this early phase of the War. Nixon having to do this in 1972 after a long series of failures. You claimed this could not have been done by Nixon in 1968. Note LBJ refused to do this in 1968. I am saying either LBJ or Nixon could have easily have done this betrayal of the SVN govt. in 1968.

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        • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
          We may be getting closer to agreement on the issues. You seem to confuse my position. We both are saying that Nixon and Thieu wanted to stop the LBJ peace plan. We both agreed it was an act of treason to interfere with the sitting President's peace talks by the Nixon people. Can I assume you agree this act caused the prolongation of the War for several years?
          No, you cannot assume that.

          First, it is not clear what 'this act' is. If you mean Nixon's treason then it is a categorical NO. The treason was the interference. That it made no difference is irrelevant, it is still treason.

          If you mean the decision of the SVN to withdraw from the talks then the answer is 'no idea'. Remember that the talks were also delayed for years by arguments over the refusal of the DRV to even acknowledge the RVN & arguments over the role of the NLF. We simply do not know what would have happened. What we do know is that the RVN had no desire to commit suicide in 1968, having survived the most concerted attempt of the war to defeat it.

          The rub that bother you appears to be that Nixon refused in 1968 to strong arm and offer sweet promises to Thieu so as to abandon the SVN govt. at this early phase of the War. Nixon having to do this in 1972 after a long series of failures. You claimed this could not have been done by Nixon in 1968. Note LBJ refused to do this in 1968. I am saying either LBJ or Nixon could have easily have done this betrayal of the SVN govt. in 1968.
          You need to re-read this paragraph, work out what you are trying to say, then re-write it more clearly. You really do seem to have confused yourself, so I'll wait until you can state your case more clearly.

          When you do, just remember that Nixon did not become President until 1969. Also remember that my point all along is that the RVN decided to 'kill' the talks because it thought it would get a poor deal, not because Nixon asked them to.
          Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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          • Originally posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
            That fact is very sad indeed.The loss of 58,000 americans is loudly proclaimed,yet seldom heard that over 200,000 south Vietnamese soldiers died......
            I thought it was even more than that, but yes, the RVN perspective has never been properly acknowledged. Americans of all stripes have been too obsessed with themselves and the Vietnamese who won the war aren't keen to fill in the gaps.

            This discussion is a good reminder of how ingrained those prejudices are. It seems inconceivable that this group of Asians might be able to make decisions 'by their little selves' rather than just wait for white people to tell them what to do.
            Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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            • I see said the Blind Man!

              You are claiming this act of the RVN (which ended the LBJ peace process in 1968) did not prolong the War for several years as it was RVN own initiative plus RVN lack of desire to commit suicide as a nation.

              You further claim Nixon simply asking RVN to stop the talks which is irrelevant because RVN already had this position independently of Nixon.

              These positions are not logical. Nixon said more than stop the talks to the RVN which you imply. He actually said stop and get a better deal from him/Nixon. This activity does not make the RVN an independent player but a dependent player upon Nixon and his promise. How in the World would one claim this act did not prolong the War is puzzling to me!

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              • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                I see said the Blind Man!
                Sorry, but you are still struggling to see anything. I have basically said the same thing three times and you still seem not to understand it. This will be the fourth and last time.

                You are claiming this act of the RVN (which ended the LBJ peace process in 1968) did not prolong the War for several years as it was RVN own initiative plus RVN lack of desire to commit suicide as a nation.
                No, I am claiming that it is impossible to be certain that it prolonged the war. It may have, it may not have. There are simply too many variables.

                You further claim Nixon simply asking RVN to stop the talks which is irrelevant because RVN already had this position independently of Nixon.
                Basically.

                These positions are not logical.
                Yes they are, you are just not paying attention.

                Nixon said more than stop the talks to the RVN which you imply. He actually said stop and get a better deal from him/Nixon. This activity does not make the RVN an independent player but a dependent player upon Nixon and his promise.
                As I have already stated, Nguyen Van Thieu and Nguyen Cao Ky, the two senior figures in the RVN, did not like or trust Hubert Humphrey. They were both personally familiar with Nixon and were aware of this politics. They believed that Humphrey would sell them out to get a peace deal (which was highly likely). They believed they would have a better chance with Nixon as President (which was a reasonable assessment). They came to these conclusions before Nixon contacted then on the matter of the peace talks. They had already decided that the peace talks would not be in their interests and that withdrawing would be best for them and Nixon, which is what they wanted.

                They did not need to be told to do any of this by Nixon because they were paying close attention to the politics of the nation whose actions decided their future. What amazes me is that anyone would assume they would do any less.

                How in the World would one claim this act did not prolong the War is puzzling to me!
                Of course it is puzzling. You think that your ill informed 'logic' overrides the statements of the two most senior men in the RVN. Until you accept that they have a better understanding of the decisions they made you will always be puzzled.

                Personally I am puzzled that after 3 attempts on my part you still refuse to accept the accounts of the two people most familiar with this issue. I suspect I will never fully understand this and I lack the patience to keep repeating myself. You have the facts. if you choose to ignore them that is your problem.
                Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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