Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

PTSD - Will it be Accepted???

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • PTSD - Will it be Accepted???

    The views on PTSD are wide and varied. Two articles on it just came out so I thought I would share them with you.

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/con...pyK/story.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/us...rges.html?_r=0
    "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
    - Col. David Hackworth

  • #2
    I can understand the need to re-evaluate the numerous vets that received less than desirable discharges. These men put themselves in harm's way and deserve better than to be shoved aside when we know/recognize the difficulties of PTSD. That being said Shepherd saying I want that honorable, he said. I did do my part, until I really felt it wasnt worth getting killed for. is looked at differently. He didn't go back because of combat induced stress or because he didn't think something was worth dying for. The two are very different.
    John

    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JBark View Post
      I can understand the need to re-evaluate the numerous vets that received less than desirable discharges. These men put themselves in harm's way and deserve better than to be shoved aside when we know/recognize the difficulties of PTSD. That being said Shepherd saying I want that honorable, he said. I did do my part, until I really felt it wasnt worth getting killed for. is looked at differently. He didn't go back because of combat induced stress or because he didn't think something was worth dying for. The two are very different.
      I agree with you on this. His comments appear to be less to do with stress of combat and more towards a desire not to be put in the line of fire where of course there is a risk of being wounded or worse.
      "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
      - Col. David Hackworth

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm ambivalent on this. After so many years just how can it be proven that the less than honorable discharge and the PTSD are tied together?
        A disclaimer - I have an honorable discharge, and I also have been treated for PTSD by the VA.
        I would respectfully submit that a vast number of men went through bad times in Vietnam and still aquitted themselves honorably.
        There is nothing so exhillarating as to be shot at without result.
        Winston Churchill

        Comment


        • #5
          PTSD is real, I've seen it in too many vets. All those I've met and know also received honorable discharges.
          "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JBark View Post
            I can understand the need to re-evaluate the numerous vets that received less than desirable discharges. These men put themselves in harm's way and deserve better than to be shoved aside when we know/recognize the difficulties of PTSD. That being said Shepherd saying I want that honorable, he said. I did do my part, until I really felt it wasnt worth getting killed for. is looked at differently. He didn't go back because of combat induced stress or because he didn't think something was worth dying for. The two are very different.

            I think I might make a case for those that received less than desirable discharges after Vietnam. PTSD was not recognized or treated. Those that had behavior problems in the military after Vietnam were just seen as insubordinate or trouble makers. No diagnosis or treatment was attempted and they were just processed out with 212's or dishonorables.
            No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends John 15:13

            Comment


            • #7
              I think in the next few decades we will continue to learn more about the neuro-biological issues related to stress, addictions, and the numerous other issues that crop up in the lives of our populations. Some people are more succeptable to these issues, many experiences we might not expect to cause problems will continue to be misunderstood. It will take much more research and a lot of understanding by an open minded population. In WWII battle fatigue had only just come about to be accepted and marginally understood...we need to come much further.
              John

              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

              Comment


              • #8
                i have dealt with PTSD many times in my years with the fire service. However, I am weary of this case because his comments sound more like cowardice than just stress. There were very few who did not witness an act of violence or death while serving in Vietnam, even if not serving in a combat role. If every soldier who witnessed a death while in a combat zone refused to go out again and do their job, what then? I and many of the men who served in the fire serviced have witness horrid accidents or acts of violence. I preformed cpr on so many infants and toddlers over the years that I can't count them all. The stress and emotional toll is unbelievable but the job must go on and the vast majority continue to do so. I just find his comments more based on 'I don't want to die' (who does) more than the profound case of not being able to function at all.
                That being said, I do respect the part he played in the war up to that point.
                "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
                - Col. David Hackworth

                Comment


                • #9
                  I also have experience in the fire service and I agree with the analogy. Myself, a retired Captain and EMT in a large professional department, I believe the complete immersion in emergency response with all the associated physical, mental and emotional pain caused from injury and death to the many victims we deal with on a daily basis does take it's toll on one. There are people who get "burned out" and sometimes have to change occupations or assignments, and no one thinks less of them, but the vast majority stay the course and learn how to separate their profession and their duty to the public and their fellow firefighters from their own needs. They suck it up, just like we did in Vietnam. As someone who served there in the capacity of a Marine grunt in 1968-69 and was wounded and decades later diagnosed with PTSD, I am of the opinion, after reading the articles in question about this man and his current claim, that I do not have anything in common with him and that I do not feel he and I are alike. In fact, I believe that what he did then was and is now unacceptable and I think he is trying to justify his cowardly behavior back then and justifiable less than honorable discharge on the current support and medical opinion given to veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think to give him the credit for PTSD and the excuse that he seems to demand NOW, under the circumstances that has been revealed in the articles, would be to dishonor all of us that stayed the course and put our country ahead of our personal fears. Just my opinion, based solely on my own personal experiences and the information provided by the given links.
                  Semper Fi

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 03Fox2/1 View Post
                    As someone who served there in the capacity of a Marine grunt in 1968-69 and was wounded and decades later diagnosed with PTSD, I am of the opinion, after reading the articles in question about this man and his current claim, that I do not have anything in common with him and that I do not feel he and I are alike. In fact, I believe that what he did then was and is now unacceptable and I think he is trying to justify his cowardly behavior back then and justifiable less than honorable discharge on the current support and medical opinion given to veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think to give him the credit for PTSD and the excuse that he seems to demand NOW, under the circumstances that has been revealed in the articles, would be to dishonor all of us that stayed the course and put our country ahead of our personal fears. Just my opinion, based solely on my own personal experiences and the information provided by the given links.
                    Semper Fi
                    I agree with your assessment and in particular want to comment on the above highlighted quote. I think your wording is perfect...highly commendable. No name calling, simple and to the point. Bravo!

                    John

                    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I want that honorable, he said. I did do my part, until I really felt it wasnt worth getting killed for.

                      well, that was really the point, wasn't it? to do the whole tour whether you believed in it or not? sometimes my motivation was sketchy too but I always knew the only way home was straight forward. I was hella cynical towards the end myself and i left knowing we would lose but I did show up every freaking day.

                      There seems to be seperate isssues here: Did he get PTSD in combat (appears yes, with a BSM with V) and did that PTSD give him a diminished capacity defense for the LEss Than Honorable? (Evidently not)

                      I would suspect there's more to this story than just whats in this article, lots more. A lot of why this might get over is that Army records of that time are really sketchy and finding witnesses for specific events is difficult. here's a Fact of Life: evrybody remembers things in favor of themselves, especially where money's involved

                      There's no doubt in my mind that PTSD is real, I know a lot of combat vets from every war and those wars did leave their mark. Most of my friends had trouble adjusting, many like me lost stripes afterwards, usually to do with alcohol. I was smoking pot---that could be me with the BCD real easy.

                      we just had a big shooting up here in OR in Clackamas. Now everyone's talkiing about all those people and their PTSD from watching it. Really got me to thinking--- I was a 101st grunt and a MACV Lrp. I was in maybe 20 firefights in a year and probably mortared and shelled twice that much. Each time I suspected my life to be endangered. Still a lot of blank space for a year, eh? I was glad of all those blank spaces, no fooling, I'd get tired of pretending to be brave.
                      If people could be that thrown off their lives by witnessing a shooting what is one like who's seen a couple of dozen? and Then there's other individual acts I personally did, like stabbing a sleeping man to death and I shot more than one man in the back and more than that face to face (if the Army wants me to hide what I did they should have paid me more)
                      how could that NOT have a big effect on my life? It was years before I could look a young Asian man in the face again.
                      Combat vets pay the price all their lives, even the ones with bad paper.hats what a lifetime of being a combat vet has taught me
                      Last edited by exlrrp; 14 Dec 12, 09:36.
                      Happy just to be alive

                      Americans will always do the right thing.
                      After they've tried everything else
                      Winston Churchill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DeltaOne View Post
                        The views on PTSD are wide and varied. Two articles on it just came out so I thought I would share them with you.

                        http://www.boston.com/news/local/con...pyK/story.html

                        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/us...rges.html?_r=0
                        Regarding Mr. Shepherd, there is way more to this case than the news reports would indicate.

                        The federal pleading shows

                        Enlisted July 1968
                        Nov 68 - convicted at Special Court Martial while in training for AWOL for an approximately 3 week period. He received 5 months confinement which was suspended.

                        January 21, 1969 Assigned to 9th Inf at Dong Tam
                        January 28, 1969 - Received Article 15 for missing training
                        Apr 29, 1969 - Convicted at Special Court Martial for failure to obey a lawful order on 2 occasions - 6 months confinement (suspended) 6 months forfeiture of pay.
                        Aug 1969 - Administratively Discharged under less than honorable conditions for a pattern of "shirking"
                        Jul 1977 - Received upgraded General discharge by 1977 Presidential Clemency order
                        Aug 1978 - Army Review Board refuses to further upgrade discharge and rules him ineligible to receive VA Benefits due to the General Discharge

                        They need to find themselves an individual with a less troubled past. It looks like he was a FU from day one of his military service - maybe his PTSD started when a Drill Sergeant yelled at him.

                        http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pd...dComplaint.pdf
                        Last edited by nbrooks503; 16 Dec 12, 16:38.
                        Vietnam - US Army, Aug 66-Feb 68
                        Vietnam - USG Civilian, Feb 68-Aug 71
                        Special Agent/Criminal Investigator - US Customs Jan 72-Jan 2001
                        Wannabe Concert and Sports Photographer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nbrooks503 View Post
                          Regarding Mr. Shepherd, there is way more to this case than the news reports would indicate.

                          The federal pleading shows

                          Enlisted July 1968
                          Nov 68 - convicted at Special Court Martial while in training for AWOL for an approximately 3 week period. He received 5 months confinement which was suspended.

                          January 21, 1969 Assigned to 9th Inf at Dong Tam
                          January 28, 1969 - Received Article 15 for missing training
                          Apr 29, 1969 - Convicted at Special Court Martial for failure to obey a lawful order on 2 occasions - 6 months confinement (suspended) 6 months forfeiture of pay.
                          Aug 1969 - Administratively Discharged under less than honorable conditions for a pattern of "shirking"
                          Jul 1977 - Received upgraded General discharge by 1977 Presidential Clemency order
                          Aug 1978 - Army Review Board refuses to further upgrade discharge and rules him ineligible to receive VA Benefits due to the General Discharge

                          They need to find themselves an individual with a less troubled past. It looks like he was a FU from day one of his military service - maybe his PTSD started when a Drill Sergeant yelled at him.

                          http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pd...dComplaint.pdf
                          Nice find, Nigel! No hero, he.

                          -- RR
                          www.RadioVietnam.net

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So why was he drafted & sent over?

                            Originally posted by nbrooks503 View Post
                            Regarding Mr. Shepherd, there is way more to this case than the news reports would indicate.

                            The federal pleading shows

                            Enlisted July 1968
                            Nov 68 - convicted at Special Court Martial while in training for AWOL for an approximately 3 week period. He received 5 months confinement which was suspended.

                            January 21, 1969 Assigned to 9th Inf at Dong Tam
                            January 28, 1969 - Received Article 15 for missing training
                            Apr 29, 1969 - Convicted at Special Court Martial for failure to obey a lawful order on 2 occasions - 6 months confinement (suspended) 6 months forfeiture of pay.
                            Aug 1969 - Administratively Discharged under less than honorable conditions for a pattern of "shirking"
                            Jul 1977 - Received upgraded General discharge by 1977 Presidential Clemency order
                            Aug 1978 - Army Review Board refuses to further upgrade discharge and rules him ineligible to receive VA Benefits due to the General Discharge

                            They need to find themselves an individual with a less troubled past. It looks like he was a FU from day one of his military service - maybe his PTSD started when a Drill Sergeant yelled at him.

                            http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pd...dComplaint.pdf
                            There are people who can function very well, left in a stable community. Draft them, send them into combat, you ruin them.

                            ThIS is one area where I AGREE WITH JANE FONDA. NOT EVERYONE HAD THE 'PULL' TO end up flying Texas air national guard F102's over Dallas during the Vietnam war.- to pick an entirely random example.

                            Then go AWOL to work the election for his local ward healer..
                            then have his AWOL record 'vanish'...
                            Then become POTUS>
                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It is a responsibility of command

                              Originally posted by JBark View Post
                              I think in the next few decades we will continue to learn more about the neuro-biological issues related to stress, addictions, and the numerous other issues that crop up in the lives of our populations. Some people are more succeptable to these issues, many experiences we might not expect to cause problems will continue to be misunderstood. It will take much more research and a lot of understanding by an open minded population. In WWII battle fatigue had only just come about to be accepted and marginally understood...we need to come much further.
                              To identify men who should be re assigned to support roles for the duration of their tour. The system failed this soldier.

                              Now he is 65- give him his pension & his pride. CYA is deplorable behavior- 'shirking with paper.'
                              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              • Karri
                                Prawn heads
                                by Karri
                                How do you cook them? How do you eat them?

                                So far I've always just twisted them off, and discarded it along with the shells and such, only...
                                Yesterday, 11:40
                              • Jose50
                                Thoughts on the US abandoning NATO
                                by Jose50
                                Now may be a good time for the NATO countries to start beefing up their materiel, personnel and alliances. There is a decided wave here in the US that...
                                Yesterday, 08:41
                              • Von Richter
                                Sagittarius Rising...
                                by Von Richter
                                Just having a re-read of this book after it's stood for donkey's years on the bookshelf. Once again, within the first couple of pages, I'm transported...
                                Yesterday, 01:19
                              Working...
                              X