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  • #46
    You Americans did the most enough ever seen.

    Vietnam suffered alone the number of bomb tonnage 3 times greater than all the ones dropped on the Axis (Germany, Japan, Italy ....).

    In 1972 Hanoi suffered more than 10 times greater than the atom bomb dropped on Japan.

    It was too far enough.


    01 Mar 1973, Hanoi, Vietnam --- Two Vietnamese children stand in front of the ruins of war-destroyed houses in Kham Thien, a part of Hanoi in North Vietnam in March 1973. The white head bandage is a sign for lost relatives. The United States of America flew about 2,000 air attacks on cities and targets in North Vietnam during the "Christmas bombings" in 1972. The peace agreement was signed on the 27th of January in 1973 in Paris. Photo: Werner Schulze --- Image by © Werner Schulze/dpa/Corbis © Corbis. All Rights Reserved.


    01 Mar 1973, Hanoi, Vietnam --- Vietnamese women clean bricks for the reconstruction on a field of debris between war-destroyed houses in Kham Thien, a part of Hanoi in North Vietnam in March 1973. The United States of America flew about 2,000 air attacks on cities and targets in North Vietnam during the "Christmas bombings" in 1972. The peace agreement was signed on the 27th of January in 1973 in Paris. Photo: Werner Schulze --- Image by © Werner Schulze/dpa/Corbis © Corbis. All Rights Reserved

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by miska-iloveyou View Post
      In 1972 Hanoi suffered more than 10 times greater than the atom bomb dropped on Japan.

      01 Mar 1973, Hanoi, Vietnam --- Two Vietnamese children stand in front of the ruins of war-destroyed houses in Kham Thien, a part of Hanoi in North Vietnam in March 1973. The white head bandage is a sign for lost relatives. The United States of America flew about 2,000 air attacks on cities and targets in North Vietnam during the "Christmas bombings" in 1972. The peace agreement was signed on the 27th of January in 1973 in Paris. Photo: Werner Schulze --- Image by © Werner Schulze/dpa/Corbis © Corbis. All Rights Reserved.


      01 Mar 1973, Hanoi, Vietnam --- Vietnamese women clean bricks for the reconstruction on a field of debris between war-destroyed houses in Kham Thien, a part of Hanoi in North Vietnam in March 1973. The United States of America flew about 2,000 air attacks on cities and targets in North Vietnam during the "Christmas bombings" in 1972. The peace agreement was signed on the 27th of January in 1973 in Paris. Photo: Werner Schulze --- Image by © Werner Schulze/dpa/Corbis © Corbis. All Rights Reserved
      Say, WHAT?!?! I have never seen any pictures of Hanoi that are anywhere close to the damage done to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Certainly these pictures aren't. Compare with below --



      -- RR
      www.RadioVietnam.net

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by RadioResearcher View Post
        Say, WHAT?!?! I have never seen any pictures of Hanoi that are anywhere close to the damage done to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Certainly these pictures aren't.
        -- RR
        I refer to the total number of destructive power of all the bombs dropped, compared with the atom one dropped onto Hiroshima.

        The 1972's dropped on Hanoi and Haiphong was 5 times greater than Hiroshima's as i have checked.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by miska-iloveyou View Post
          Vietnam suffered alone the number of bomb tonnage 3 times greater than all the ones dropped on the Axis (Germany, Japan, Italy ....).
          Most of the Vietnam "tonnage" was drooped on UNPOPULATED areas; where most of the "Axis" tonnage was dropped on POPULATED areas.

          You are comparing "apples to oranges".

          LBJ was a "bleeding heart" that restrained our Military from fighting a "proper war". You should be counting your blessings.

          LOL, we sure killed a lot of "jungle".


          1st ID, 1/28th '67/'68 Phouc Vinh & Quan Loi
          Skirmishes Bu Dop Dec-67, An My, Thu Duc Feb-68
          Plt. Ldr - CIB, Purple Hearts, Silver Star
          What we write can be considered to be a reflection of our SOUL providing others to know our CHARACTER.

          Comment


          • #50
            It is as likely to teach a mule cryptology as it is to demonstrate truth to a commie when they actually believe the propoganda garbage they have been fed.
            "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by miska-iloveyou View Post
              I refer to the total number of destructive power of all the bombs dropped, compared with the atom one dropped onto Hiroshima.

              The 1972's dropped on Hanoi and Haiphong was 5 times greater than Hiroshima's as i have checked.


              And yet, How many civilians died in The Christmas Bombings?? Roughly 1,200.
              Speaks to the skill of the USAF. Believe me if the U.S. wanted to wipe Hanoi off the map, it could of been done so in short order.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by KEN JENSEN View Post
                Most of the Vietnam "tonnage" was drooped on UNPOPULATED areas; where most of the "Axis" tonnage was dropped on POPULATED areas.

                You are comparing "apples to oranges".

                LBJ was a "bleeding heart" that restrained our Military from fighting a "proper war". You should be counting your blessings.

                LOL, we sure killed a lot of "jungle".




                Another thing these far left lemmings tend to forget is that 1) the Vietnam War lasted twice as long as the Vietnam War but more importantly each B-52s carried the bomb load far exceeding the B-17s & B-24s from WWII. Tonnage doesn't tell the whole story, far from it, apples & oranges indeed!!

                http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/b17.html

                The Boeing B-17, and the Consolidated B-24 were the United States' two standard ... preferably 250 mph (402 km/h); a capability of carrying a 2,000 lb (907 kg) bomb load…


                http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/sy...2-describe.htm

                During the Vietnam War the "Big Belly" modification of the B-52Ds to carry conventional bombs increased the internal bomb bay load from 27 to 84 bombs, and added modified underwing bomb racks to carry 24 bombs, resulting in a maximum payload of 60,000 pounds of bombs -- a total of 108 bombs.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by miska-iloveyou View Post
                  You Americans did the most enough ever seen.

                  Vietnam suffered alone the number of bomb tonnage 3 times greater than all the ones dropped on the Axis (Germany, Japan, Italy ....).

                  In 1972 Hanoi suffered more than 10 times greater than the atom bomb dropped on Japan.

                  It was too far enough.
                  And we're supposed to believe the peace loving NVA were swell guys who loved human rights? The link below talks about the Battle of An Loc and how it resembled Berlin at the end of WWII after all the artillery leveled on them by the peace loving NVA. Doesn't seem like the peace loving NVA were the swell guys that the Politburo makes them out to be.

                  http://books.google.com/books?id=c0p...Berlin&f=false

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by miska-iloveyou View Post
                    The 1972's dropped on Hanoi and Haiphong was 5 times greater than Hiroshima's as i have checked.
                    Before you "stand up" and be so "boisterous" you should check out what could have been done to Hanoi and Haiphong without even using any "A" bombs. We dumb arz Americans were too merciful on your people.

                    Hell Hitler's "Blitz" on London was far greater than what was experienced by any N. Vietnam citizens.

                    You should also consider the number of "bombing sorties" the Americans flew against the "Axis" powers compared to the number of bombing sorties flew against N. Vietnam; tonnage meant nothing, destruction is what counted....

                    Here consider this stuff...

                    American Bomber Sorties over Europe 754,818


                    And as to your Dec 1972 stuff a couple thousand bombing sorties (at most) and your folks were "knuckling under"....

                    ...the President authorized OPERATION PROUD DEEP, an extensive bombing campaign directed at the heart of North Vietnam. The bombing lasted for five days, with over 1025 sorties flown against targets in North Vietnam.[3] With peace negotiations going nowhere President Nixon felt drastic action was necessary. On May 10, 1972 a massive bombing campaign began into North Vietnam, this was combined with the mining of Haiphong harbor and a naval blockade of North Vietnam. The Operation was code named LINEBACKER 1, and it was the largest bombing campaign in the war. President Nixon took the gloves off, so to speak, and gave the military commanders the flexibility and command to prosecute the war. North Vietnam felt the full fury of U.S. airpower, with B-52 bombers, and other jet bombers delivering new laser guided bombs and other high tech ordnance. Fuel depots, rail lines, power plants, industrial centers, bridges and numerous other targets were slammed by accurate bombing by the U.S. LINEBACKER was considered a great success and it prompted one former aide to the Johnson administration to say " Linebacker had a greater impact in its first four months than Rolling Thunder had in four years."[4] North Vietnam was sent reeling and sought to reopen peace negotiations, and as a result President Nixon ordered a bombing halt on October 23, 1972. Peace looked like it was close at hand at last.

                    The Christmas Bombing and Peace

                    After 2 months of negotiations talks between the U.S. and North Vietnam broke down in early December 1972. This enraged President Nixon and a new round of air attacks was conceived. LINEBACKER II was initiated and it was more aggressive than ever before. Nixon left the ball in the court of the military, stating to Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, " I don't want any more of this crap about the fact that we couldn't hit this target or that one, this is your chance to use your military power to win this war, and if you don't Ill hold you responsible."[5] For the next 12 days U.S. B-52 bombers and other aircraft dropped 36,000 tons of bombs on North Vietnam, exceeding the tonnage for the past two years before.[6] By December 30, the North Vietnamese were practically out of surface to air missiles and the U.S. continued to rain destruction deep into the heart of North Vietnam. The eleven day "Christmas Bombing" of 1972 had accomplished what hadn't been done in over 14 years, it brought the North Vietnamese to the negotiating table. Sir Robert Thompson, a British advisor to Vietnam summed up the operation, "In my view, on December 30, 1972, after 11 days of those B-52 attacks on the Hanoi area, you had won the war, it was all over!

                    http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/vietnam/airpower/
                    I do not believe your recent post within this thread is serving you or "your people" well.



                    1st ID, 1/28th '67/'68 Phouc Vinh & Quan Loi
                    Skirmishes Bu Dop Dec-67, An My, Thu Duc Feb-68
                    Plt. Ldr - CIB, Purple Hearts, Silver Star
                    What we write can be considered to be a reflection of our SOUL providing others to know our CHARACTER.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by steelpot View Post


                      And yet, How many civilians died in The Christmas Bombings?? Roughly 1,200.
                      Speaks to the skill of the USAF. Believe me if the U.S. wanted to wipe Hanoi off the map, it could of been done so in short order.
                      + Most of civilians living in the capital of Hanoi had been evacuated to the other provinces before the carpet bombing (Christmas bombing 1972). I was told enough to be able to imagine how the evacuation of Hanoian was. That's why civilian's casualty was very low.

                      + B-52 was one of three strategic weapons of the U.S. at that time. I do believe when the U.S. used B-52 in attempt to raze Hanoi down to the Stone Age, then they had the ambition to force Hanoi to surrender like the Japanese.

                      + Depending on how the US Airforce conduct the mission over Hanoi. I was said that after 12 days of intense fighting with around 50 U.S pilots killed and 50 captured, plenty of US aviators tried to dodge doing duty of bombing raids over Hanoi.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        You do realize that the only time the B-52s were ever used in the bombing of Hanoi was in 1972??

                        The casualties the USAF suffered during The Christmas Bombing were very light especially compared the the early bombing campaign over Germany.

                        The pilots were not dodging flying, they just wanted the tactics changed, they were too predictable.

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Linebacker_II

                        The repetitious nature of the previous evening's strike profiles had allowed North Vietnamese air defense forces to anticipate strike patterns and to salvo 34 missiles into the target area.[1] Four B-52Gs and three B-52Ds were lost in the first and third waves of the mission.[1] A fourth D model, returning to Thailand, crashed in Laos. Only two of the eight downed crews were recovered by search and rescue aircraft.[37]

                        The main problem seemed to lie within the headquarters of SAC, which had based its tactics on a MiG threat that had not materialized during the three missions. The tactics utilized (flight paths, altitudes, formations, timing, etc.) had not varied. The Air Force explanation for this course of events was that the similarity would be helpful to the B-52 crews, who were inexperienced in flying in such high-threat environments.[43] Air Force historian Earl Tilford offered a differing opinion: "Years of dropping bombs on undefended jungle and the routines of planning for nuclear war had fostered a mind-set within the SAC command that nearly led to disaster...Poor tactics and a good dose of overconfidence combined to make the first few nights of Linebacker nightmarish for the B-52 crews."[44]

                        Final phase

                        The strikes of the 24th were followed by a 36-hour Christmas stand-down, during which Air Force planners went to work to revise their plans for the next phase of operations. Due to aircraft losses during the initial phase, they intended to launch an all-out attack on North Vietnam's air defenses when the operation resumed. This course was also necessary since, by Christmas, most of the strategic targets within North Vietnam were in shambles.[53]

                        SAC also belatedly turned over tactical mission planning to its subordinate Eighth Air Force headquarters on Guam, which promptly revised the previously costly tactics. Instead of utilizing multiple waves, all of the bombers would be in and out of the target area within 20 minutes and they would approach from multiple directions and at different altitudes. They would exit by varying routes and the steep PTTs were eliminated.[54] Ten targets, in both the Hanoi and Haiphong areas, were to be struck by bombers approaching in seven separate streams, four of which were to come in off the Gulf of Tonkin.[55] Additional jammers were also installed in the B-52Gs, allowing them to return to the operation.

                        On 26 December 120 bombers lifted off to strike Thai Nguyen, the Kinh No complex, the Duc Noi, Hanoi, and Haiphong Railroads, and a vehicle storage area at Van Dien. 78 of the bombers took off from Andersen in one time block, the largest single combat launch in SAC history, while 42 others came in from Thailand.[56] The bombers were supported by 113 tactical aircraft which provided chaff corridors, escort fighters, Wild Weasel SAM suppression, and electronic countermeasures support.[57]

                        The North Vietnamese air defense system, though still capable, was overwhelmed by the number of aircraft it had to track in such a short time period and by a dense blanket of chaff laid down by the fighter-bombers.[58] 250 SAMs had been fired,[1] and the strain on the remaining North Vietnamese inventory showed, since only 68 were fired during the mission.[59] One B-52 was shot down near Hanoi and another damaged aircraft made it back to U-Tapao, where it crashed just short of the runway. Only two members of the crew survived.[60]

                        On the following night, 60 bombers flew the mission, with some attacking SAM sites while others struck Lang Dang, Duc Noi, the Trung Quang Railroad, and Van Dien. One B-52 was so heavily damaged that its crew ejected over Laos, where it was rescued. A second aircraft was not so lucky. It took a direct hit and went down while attacking the Trung Quang Railroad yards.[61] During the evening's operations two F-4s and an HH-53 search and rescue helicopter were also shot down.[47]

                        Day ten (28 December) called for strikes by 60 B-52s–15 Gs and 15 Ds from Andersen and 30 Ds from U-Tapao, The aircraft formed six waves attacking five targets. Four of the waves struck targets in the Hanoi area (including SAM Support Facility #58), while the fifth hit the Lang Dang Railroad yards southwest of Lang Son, a major chokepoint on the supply route from the People's Republic of China. No aircraft were lost on the mission.[60]

                        By the eleventh and final day (29 December), there were few strategic targets worthy of mention left within North Vietnam. There were, however, two SAM storage areas at Phuc Yen and the Lang Dang yards that could be profitably attacked.[62] A total of 60 aircraft again made the trip north, but the mix was altered; U-Tapao again provided 30 D models but the Andersen force was varied, putting 12 G models and 18 Ds over the north. Total bombing was rounded out by sending 30 G models on Arclight missions in southern panhandle of North Vietnam and in South Vietnam.[62] Once again, there were no aircraft losses to anti-aircraft fire, MiGs, or missiles.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Steelpot, there's a very good explanation of those criticized bombing runs in "Yankee Air Pirates", a novel by one of those pilots, CM McKusker.

                          Miska, if you really want to see how the B-52 aircrews viewed the war, you'll do no better than here:

                          http://www.amazon.com/Yankee-Air-Pir.../dp/0982618050

                          Indeed, it probably contains far more truths than mere statistics and unit histories can tell.
                          dit: Lirelou

                          Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Trailboss49 View Post
                            It is as likely to teach a mule cryptology as it is to demonstrate truth to a commie when they actually believe the propoganda garbage they have been fed.
                            I heard a good Cold War quote recently that goes something like "The difference between the Soviet people and Western people is that the Western people believe their own propaganda." One man's patriotism is another man's propaganda.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Militiawoman and the B-52 wreckage of Christmas bombing 1972. She's a member of the only army that shot down B-52.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by miska-iloveyou View Post
                                + Most of civilians living in the capital of Hanoi had been evacuated to the other provinces before the carpet bombing (Christmas bombing 1972). I was told enough to be able to imagine how the evacuation of Hanoian was. That's why civilian's casualty was very low.

                                + B-52 was one of three strategic weapons of the U.S. at that time. I do believe when the U.S. used B-52 in attempt to raze Hanoi down to the Stone Age, then they had the ambition to force Hanoi to surrender like the Japanese.

                                + Depending on how the US Airforce conduct the mission over Hanoi. I was said that after 12 days of intense fighting with around 50 U.S pilots killed and 50 captured, plenty of US aviators tried to dodge doing duty of bombing raids over Hanoi.
                                Like I said earlier, it's easier to teach a donkey Texas Hold Em than it is to actually win an argument with a communist who has indoctrinated through false propaganda.

                                1. You can believe what you want (Well, at least in America you can, not so these days in Vietnam if you disagree with the politoboro). The fact is that the American B-52s endangered themselves at times rather than drop their ordinance on known populated areas by civilians. Likewise the AAA guns/missiles placed on schools & hospitals by your government was also considered out of bounds. By the way, the US & Allies were NEVER after the communist North Vietnamese to surrender as the Japanese did after WWII. We just wanted you to keep your military within your own boundaries.

                                2. I was stationed near Saigon at that time and in MI. We never heard one rumor of Air Force/Navy personnel not reporting to duty to fly a mission in an effort to dodge their duty. And let me clue you, if that had been the case we'd have heard of it. Several died doing their duty and several were captured, all POWs resisted communist propaganda in spite of their inhuman living conditions they were forced into.

                                I really recommend you check your facts through various sources on the internet before you continue to show just how farcical your government's propaganda machine is.
                                Last edited by Trailboss49; 07 May 12, 13:32. Reason: grammar
                                "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

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