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  • #46
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    You can make a case for Tone as a 'hero' but not Sands. He was a Provo and that means he belonged to a terrorist organization and was, therefore, a terrorist.

    Neither had the status or record that Ney did and all you're doing here is insulting a distinguished soldier. I don't know of any association Ney had with the Irish as he was from eastern France and didn't command Irish troops.

    Your 'historical' analogy is absolute nonsense and is completely disingenuous.

    Why are you trying to glorify a terrorist?
    It all depends on which side we take place: oppressors / oppressed ... dominant / dominated ... conquerors / vanquished ... colonizers / colonized ...

    For some, such is a hero and for others, a terrorist

    As they say it is the victors who write history

    And even Ney is no exception to this state of affairs, considered a hero by some, he is judged by the House of Peers and sentenced to death "for treason" ... therefore considered a traitor by others

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by daddut roger View Post

      It all depends on which side we take place: oppressors / oppressed ... dominant / dominated ... conquerors / vanquished ... colonizers / colonized ...

      For some, such is a hero and for others, a terrorist

      As they say it is the victors who write history

      And even Ney is no exception to this state of affairs, considered a hero by some, he is judged by the House of Peers and sentenced to death "for treason" ... therefore considered a traitor by others
      Only by the Bourbons and their adherents. Rationalization of history, and historical personalities, tends to diminish the value of historical study.
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • #48
        yes ... like I say hero for some, but not for others

        And for the Russians, the Austrians, the British, the Spaniards, the Prussians Ney is a hero?
        You chose Massena as your avatar, he like Ney, Lannes, Davout, Lefebvre, Bernadotte, etc ... for me they are not heroes ... great soldiers, full of bravery, yes ... but from the moment they carry the war out of France, they are no more than invaders in the pay of a dictator, wanting to dominate the world...

        a forum is a place of opinion sharing, I give you mine, as good as any other.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by daddut roger View Post
          yes ... like I say hero for some, but not for others

          And for the Russians, the Austrians, the British, the Spaniards, the Prussians Ney is a hero?
          You chose Massena as your avatar, he like Ney, Lannes, Davout, Lefebvre, Bernadotte, etc ... for me they are not heroes ... great soldiers, full of bravery, yes ... but from the moment they carry the war out of France, they are no more than invaders in the pay of a dictator, wanting to dominate the world...

          a forum is a place of opinion sharing, I give you mine, as good as any other.
          I chose Massena as my name on the forum because I am a Fellow of the Massena Society in the United States. My avatar, on the other hand, is a painting of Capt Hubert Dilger, a Baden horse artilleryman who came to the United States and fought as an artillery officer and battery commander in the American Civil War where he won the Medal of Honor.

          Regarding opinions, everyone is entitled to their own. But opinions on a history forum not supported by facts are frequently worthless.
          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment


          • #50
            For the very first time, a vast international consultation (nearly ten thousand people in almost 40 countries!) recently (2016-2017) elected the ten greatest heroes in history. Respondents thus voted in favor of Einstein, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Newton, Jesus, Mandela, Edison, Lincoln and Buddha.
            There is not a single military or great strategist

            On a history forum, to assert our opinion it is not useful either to write a thesis each time. Above all, it must remain a pleasure to discuss our common passion, even if our sensibilities diverge.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by daddut roger View Post
              yes ... like I say hero for some, but not for others

              And for the Russians, the Austrians, the British, the Spaniards, the Prussians Ney is a hero?
              I'm an Yorkshireman/Englishman and no fan of the little man in the funny 'at and his dastardly deeds. But I am a big fan of sowjers, and as sowjers most of the Marshals you mention qualify as Heroes to me.
              What's that old saying, about always denigrating your enemy, winds up belittling the sacrifice of your own side made to beat 'em?


              The long toll of the brave
              Is not lost in darkness
              Over the fruitful earth
              And athwart the seas
              Hath passed the light of noble deeds
              Unquenchable forever.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by daddut roger View Post
                For the very first time, a vast international consultation (nearly ten thousand people in almost 40 countries!) recently (2016-2017) elected the ten greatest heroes in history. Respondents thus voted in favor of Einstein, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Newton, Jesus, Mandela, Edison, Lincoln and Buddha.
                There is not a single military or great strategist

                Ha! Ha! Love it!

                No votes for fairies at the bottom of the garden too?




                The long toll of the brave
                Is not lost in darkness
                Over the fruitful earth
                And athwart the seas
                Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                Unquenchable forever.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Massena View Post
                  The reluctance to 'entertain' other source material indicates a lack of historical background as well as a prejudicial viewpoint based on current early 21st century fads posing as history .
                  Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
                  And that reluctance, my dear Pot Noddle, is wot separates them as knows wot they're on about...
                  and them as makes themselves look a bit daft on t'internet forums!
                  Bollocks to both of you .

                  We are talking about a single book and one opinion, among many. I have over a hundred books on WW2 tanks, often with differing opinions, and yet not one single book is perfect on any part of the subject, not even those of Hunnicutt, on US tanks.

                  Therefore, I can be more than reasonably certain that your lone quoted source is not the alpha and omega of this subject. Further, the lack of preview I requested does not bode well for your own POV .
                  How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                  Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by daddut roger View Post
                    For the very first time, a vast international consultation (nearly ten thousand people in almost 40 countries!) recently (2016-2017) elected the ten greatest heroes in history. Respondents thus voted in favor of Einstein, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Newton, Jesus, Mandela, Edison, Lincoln and Buddha.
                    Cor, what a dull dinner party that would be! Until Newton lamps Einstein one, then it might all kick-off.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                      Bollocks to both of you .

                      .
                      Steady on Pot Noodle. I demand satisfaction Sir!
                      Choose yer weapons and we'll settle this at playtime.


                      The long toll of the brave
                      Is not lost in darkness
                      Over the fruitful earth
                      And athwart the seas
                      Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                      Unquenchable forever.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post


                        Bollocks to both of you .

                        We are talking about a single book and one opinion, among many. I have over a hundred books on WW2 tanks, often with differing opinions, and yet not one single book is perfect on any part of the subject, not even those of Hunnicutt, on US tanks.

                        Therefore, I can be more than reasonably certain that your lone quoted source is not the alpha and omega of this subject. Further, the lack of preview I requested does not bode well for your own POV .
                        One source is definitely not the end all in historical study and discussion. However, a refusal to even take a look at the source, and its bibliography which can lead to more sources, is not a good thing at all.

                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Massena View Post

                          One source is definitely not the end all in historical study and discussion. However, a refusal to even take a look at the source, and its bibliography which can lead to more sources, is not a good thing at all.

                          I can't afford the source you delicious muppet . Some of us have sprogs that eat money.

                          On a more important note, received wisdom states that Picton was a slaver and child torturer. You will need to come up with more than one apparent source that overturns that opinion.
                          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I was born in Whitby, so fish at dawn.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8XeDvKqI4E
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Many a happy hour spent at Whitby sea fishing, love it, I've gone really upmarket these days and retired to Cleethorpes!
                              Two of the best things of reetirement I've found is, a smashing second hand book shop here, who's owner doesn't know the value of his military history books and a library on the seafront. When working I never had time to mess about in the library, now I haunt the place like a bad smell. I'm even enjoying the month long wait to glean a rarer volume that once I'd have paid a mortgage for!
                              One book I borrowed was R F Delderfield's 'The March of the Twenty Six', I wanted to see if it had stood the test of time, and in my 'umble opinion it has. So I went to the second hand bookshop and gleaned a pristine hardback copy for a quid.
                              Have an away day to Cleethorpes Pot Noodle, bung the wife and kids on the beach, while we have a browse and a couple of pints in the boozer...
                              got to be a better way of sorting things out than battering each other with a soggy Mackerel?
                              The long toll of the brave
                              Is not lost in darkness
                              Over the fruitful earth
                              And athwart the seas
                              Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                              Unquenchable forever.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
                                Many a happy hour spent at Whitby sea fishing, love it, I've gone really upmarket these days and retired to Cleethorpes!
                                Two of the best things of reetirement I've found is, a smashing second hand book shop here, who's owner doesn't know the value of his military history books and a library on the seafront. When working I never had time to mess about in the library, now I haunt the place like a bad smell. I'm even enjoying the month long wait to glean a rarer volume that once I'd have paid a mortgage for!
                                One book I borrowed was R F Delderfield's 'The March of the Twenty Six', I wanted to see if it had stood the test of time, and in my 'umble opinion it has. So I went to the second hand bookshop and gleaned a pristine hardback copy for a quid.
                                Have an away day to Cleethorpes Pot Noodle, bung the wife and kids on the beach, while we have a browse and a couple of pints in the boozer...
                                got to be a better way of sorting things out than battering each other with a soggy Mackerel?
                                Have you read any other of Delderfield's books? I did when I was (much) younger and thoroughly enjoyed them.
                                We are not now that strength which in old days
                                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                                Comment

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