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  • #16
    Originally posted by Von Richter View Post

    Bautzen, a battle that takes a bit of following to try and untangle.
    Fanboys of the little man in the funny 'at put Ney right in the frame for scuppering His Nibs's plans. In my 'umble opinion Ney's imperial master should have got his finger out and issued clearer orders.
    Echoes of what happened a tad over two years later, when Ney allegedly did it again, while his gaffer had scuttled from the field with bellyache!



    Ney was probably at his best with a command of not over 10,000 which he could personally control. At Bautzen he was given the mission of enveloping the right flank of the allied army in coordination with Napoleon's frontal attack. Ney was in command of about 84,000 men and was badly served by his incompetent chief of staff, Jomini.

    Ney committed his troops piecemeal and botched the attack which could have trapped at least half of the allied army in the field.

    He later commanded on the Berlin front in 1813 and didn't do well.

    However, at Dresden in August 1813 he was in command of a Young Guard corps and his furious assault against the allies gave them a much-needed wake-up call and greatly contributed to the victory there.
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
      What tosh. He was convicted of torture, so the norms were there already.

      And are you telling me that only a vocal minority of the early 21st century with a self-righteous agenda condemn slavery and torture? If you are, you are talking total gonads.
      See Chapter 3 of Frederick Myatt's Peninsular General on Picton. Perhaps that will help you. What is more serious were Picton's alleged financial irregularities while governor of Trinidad. His governorship was considered harsh and the Calderon affair and the subsequent trials to which are alluded by you are covered quite well on pages 49-59. You have greatly oversimplified the case and the outcome, the first trial finding Picton guilty, the second failed to acquit him, despite the evidence found and offered. The entire situation was begun by British Col W Fullarton who probably had a personal dispute with Picton.

      Perhaps you should find and read the book, especially about Picton's time as Governor of Trinidad?

      Are you familiar with the laws and penal codes of the period?

      Lastly, the oblique comparison between Picton and the Nazis is as ridiculous as the usual comparison between Napoleon and Hitler-it is a great insult to Picton and a compliment to the Nazis.
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • #18
        That's the rub of it right there, it's OK to cherry pick a snippet of the story to whip up fellow thickos in yer lynch party...
        doesn't work quiet as well when you try it on with the grown ups though...
        a whirl of pisdom you might do well to learn, my dear Pot Noodle.

        The long toll of the brave
        Is not lost in darkness
        Over the fruitful earth
        And athwart the seas
        Hath passed the light of noble deeds
        Unquenchable forever.

        Comment


        • #19
          Here's one to send our good Marshal's blood pressure off the Von Richter Scale...
          His Grace and General Picton at Waterloo. I love the fact Cpenhagen's trampling on an imperial chicken...

          1.jpg.8b541597d95fc5f5dc8b8cce79086572.jpg

          The long toll of the brave
          Is not lost in darkness
          Over the fruitful earth
          And athwart the seas
          Hath passed the light of noble deeds
          Unquenchable forever.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

            If the 'heroes' in question are slave owners and child torturers, then good riddance .
            Or if they pose 'hurt' upon lefty-liberal oiks I say leave them alone. Anyway! Picton helped to drive the nasty, barbaric Fench army out of the Peninsula. He was a hero and way above any Welsh rubbish of these days that tows the like lefty agenda.
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Massena View Post

              See Chapter 3 of Frederick Myatt's Peninsular General on Picton. Perhaps that will help you. What is more serious were Picton's alleged financial irregularities while governor of Trinidad. His governorship was considered harsh and the Calderon affair and the subsequent trials to which are alluded by you are covered quite well on pages 49-59. You have greatly oversimplified the case and the outcome, the first trial finding Picton guilty, the second failed to acquit him, despite the evidence found and offered. The entire situation was begun by British Col W Fullarton who probably had a personal dispute with Picton.

              Perhaps you should find and read the book, especially about Picton's time as Governor of Trinidad?

              Are you familiar with the laws and penal codes of the period?

              Lastly, the oblique comparison between Picton and the Nazis is as ridiculous as the usual comparison between Napoleon and Hitler-it is a great insult to Picton and a compliment to the Nazis.
              Well 'M' There's things that I agree with you on and this is one of them. Good post...

              I can't stand Napoleon as you know, but I would be just as bitter if the French lefty-liberals tried doing the same to another great man of History.
              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
              All human ills he can subdue,
              Or with a bauble or medal
              Can win mans heart for you;
              And many a blessing know to stew
              To make a megloamaniac bright;
              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
              The Pixie is a little shite.

              Comment


              • #22
                I don't agree with tearing down monuments to a political whim of the time. Those tend to wear off. I do hope that Picton's monument was kept and stored for reuse at a later date.

                On the other hand, the Confederate statue/memorial issue is another problem altogether. I can see the point of view of those here that oppose them, but tearing them down while destroying them is vandalism. Vandalism is not the solution to any problem. If the consensus is that they should be removed (the Confederacy was in open armed rebellion against the United States after all) then they should be put in storage. There are too many 'lost causers' in the American south, where I live, and they can be a pain in the posterior.

                Thankfully, no one has commented on removing Confederate statues/memorials in the Civil War National Military Parks. That would be disastrous and would be attempting to destroy/hide history. There is a state battlefield park at Bentonville which was the last big battle between Sherman and Johnston, and until quite recently no Union monuments were allowed. That is nothing but prejudicial nonsense. People need to get over it.

                Most of the Confederate monuments in the US south, however, were emplaced during the segregation period/Jim Crow south after the Civil War and were emplaced because of the era of group prejudice against American blacks. And that is the rub.

                Thanks for your posting by the way. I've always liked Picton as well as Crauford and other British generals. As I think I have mentioned to you before my first interest in the Napoleonic period was the British army after I read two books on the 71st and 74th Foot by Oates. Interest in the Grande Armee came later. And the overwhelming majority of my toy soldier collection is the British army of 1885-1914 as well as modern full dress and they are Britains toy soldiers.

                We are not now that strength which in old days
                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Massena View Post
                  Thanks for your posting by the way. I've always liked Picton as well as Crauford and other British generals. As I think I have mentioned to you before my first interest in the Napoleonic period was the British army after I read two books on the 71st and 74th Foot by Oates. Interest in the Grande Armee came later. And the overwhelming majority of my toy soldier collection is the British army of 1885-1914 as well as modern full dress and they are Britains toy soldiers.

                  I'd love to see some piccys of your Collection M. Proper toy sowjers, bet they look superb mate.





                  The long toll of the brave
                  Is not lost in darkness
                  Over the fruitful earth
                  And athwart the seas
                  Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                  Unquenchable forever.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Von Richter View Post

                    I'd love to see some piccys of your Collection M. Proper toy sowjers, bet they look superb mate.





                    I'll see what I can do...

                    Three display cases in the den, one in the living room, and one in the library with a work room for painting upstairs...and a few scattered throughout the house on bookshelves...
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Von Richter View Post


                      Pot Noodle, I'll think you'll find he wasn't, actually.


                      He was convicted, but Picton had the verdict overturned. Great being rich. No need of morality .
                      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Massena View Post
                        I don't agree with tearing down monuments to a political whim of the time. Those tend to wear off. I do hope that Picton's monument was kept and stored for reuse at a later date.
                        Having Picton's statue in a museum, highlighting both his achievements and crimes is not an issue.

                        However, slavery is wrong. No one truly wants to be a slave, unless the alternative is torture and/or death.

                        By 1807, slavery had been banned in the British Empire, which means at least most Britons in power thought it wrong in this Napoleonic time frame.
                        Even earlier, by 1805, about a quarter of sailors in the royal navy at Trafalgar were former slaves, given freedom by Britain.

                        Of course, freedom does not necessarily mean equality, but at least it was a start.

                        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                          Having Picton's statue in a museum, highlighting both his achievements and crimes is not an issue.

                          However, slavery is wrong. No one truly wants to be a slave, unless the alternative is torture and/or death.

                          By 1807, slavery had been banned in the British Empire, which means at least most Britons in power thought it wrong in this Napoleonic time frame.
                          Even earlier, by 1805, about a quarter of sailors in the royal navy at Trafalgar were former slaves, given freedom by Britain.

                          Of course, freedom does not necessarily mean equality, but at least it was a start.
                          The British didn't abolish slavery in the West Indies until 1834. What was banned in 1807-1808 was the slave trade, just as it was in the United States at the same time.

                          Have you read the recommended book?

                          Slavery is wrong. However, a knee jerk reaction to a historical situation and/or historical personage without investigating the issue is ahistorical.

                          And I don't believe that Picton himself was 'rich.' Again, see the stated reference.

                          Do you have a reference for your comment on the former slaves in the Royal Navy at Trafalgar.
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                            Great being rich. No need of morality .
                            Now that I can't argue with!



                            The long toll of the brave
                            Is not lost in darkness
                            Over the fruitful earth
                            And athwart the seas
                            Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                            Unquenchable forever.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Massena View Post

                              See Chapter 3 of Frederick Myatt's Peninsular General on Picton. Perhaps that will help you. What is more serious were Picton's alleged financial irregularities while governor of Trinidad. His governorship was considered harsh and the Calderon affair and the subsequent trials to which are alluded by you are covered quite well on pages 49-59. You have greatly oversimplified the case and the outcome, the first trial finding Picton guilty, the second failed to acquit him, despite the evidence found and offered. The entire situation was begun by British Col W Fullarton who probably had a personal dispute with Picton.

                              Perhaps you should find and read the book, especially about Picton's time as Governor of Trinidad?

                              Are you familiar with the laws and penal codes of the period?

                              Lastly, the oblique comparison between Picton and the Nazis is as ridiculous as the usual comparison between Napoleon and Hitler-it is a great insult to Picton and a compliment to the Nazis.
                              The statue was put up in 1906 when we should have known better.

                              I never said Picton was as bad as any Nazi. I merely was denigrating your comment that suggests any slaver or torturer can have a statue, as long as they are brave and serve their country.

                              Picton and torture: https://blog.library.wales/hidden-hi...isa-calderoni/

                              Louisa Calderon: https://blog.library.wales/wp-conten...a-Calderon.jpg

                              Louisa-Calderon.jpg
                              Last edited by Nick the Noodle; 28 Jul 20, 10:33.
                              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Massena View Post

                                The British didn't abolish slavery in the West Indies until 1834. What was banned in 1807-1808 was the slave trade, just as it was in the United States at the same time.
                                ave you read the recommended book?AAt leat oneA

                                Slavery is wrong. However, a knee jerk reaction to a historical situation and/or historical personage without investigating the issue is ahistorical.

                                And I don't believe that Picton himself was 'rich.' Again, see the stated reference.

                                Do you have a reference for your comment on the former slaves in the Royal Navy at Trafalgar.
                                https://dawlishchronicles.com/2019/0...fighting-sail/

                                At least one, if not two Africans on Nelsons Column.

                                Photo-09-03-2017-10-47-29-1024x1024.jpg
                                Attached Files
                                How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                                Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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