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  • Very nice pic thank you.
    "To hell wars Grudges and parties ! As our fathers Sing in real friends, The clink of glasses Roses and lilies. The clink of glasses Roses and lilies."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PhilinYuma View Post
      Ladies and Gentlemen of the forum:
      Here is a picture of an officer of the HorseGuards, 1815 by Laurence Keeble.
      Thank You Phil! The picture is excellent!

      Sincerely,
      Paul

      Comment


      • This is my take on the Royal Horse Guards Blue:



        Ugo Pericoli's rendition is pretty good for the trooper, though his turnbacks should be white and the epaulettes should be red straps. He should also have two collar button lace loops.

        The officer is correct for full dress though whether it was worn at Waterloo is a matter of conjecture.

        ***************************************



        This contemporary 1814 painting by Denis Dighton is accurate for the 1812-14 dress regulations though the helmet caterpillar tuft 'seems' to be rather exaggerated at the rear.

        ***************************************



        P.J Haythornethwait's schematic in his fine tome Waterloo Men is accurate for the trooper but the officer should have gold braid shoulder twists, not red. The girdle should be the same as that of the men but in gold. The crimson sash is a new one to me

        ***************************************



        Y.W Carmen's rendition of a trooper is fine for full dress 1812-14 regulation.

        ***************************************



        Bryan Fosten's rendition of an officer during the Waterloo campaign is about the most accurate.

        ***************************************



        C.E Franklin's schematic is imo the most accurate for both officer and trooper.

        ****************************************



        Then there's this from the Horse Guards museum, which is of an officers Uniform worn at Waterloo.

        Paul
        Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 03 Jan 14, 17:28.
        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
        All human ills he can subdue,
        Or with a bauble or medal
        Can win mans heart for you;
        And many a blessing know to stew
        To make a megloamaniac bright;
        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
        The Pixie is a little shite.

        Comment


        • Wow! Thanks, Paul, that makes life easier. so I shall do a diagnosis of the uniform based on the portrait that I posted above by Lawrence Keeble, a well known artist, but not of military figures.
          1) It was not painted from life. Note that the officer's name is not given. If it were commissioned by an officer, he would be very concerned that his uniform was accurate, except when he supervised mild fakery, as we shall see below.
          2) The helmet was made of black-dyed leather with gilt ornamentation and a single, non-functional side bar, and a guilt mount for the plume. Most importantly there was a small oval plaque, missing in the Keeble painting and in many others, but clearly demonstrated in the helmet at the Horse Guards' museum. John Mollo, has a picture of Sir Robert Hill's helmet worn at Waterloo with a plaque inscribed Royal Horse Guards Blue over an original plaque inscribed 1st Life Guards! The peak was slightly retrousse, and pointed in the front. Keeble, and most artists have it black with a gilt edging. I think that this is correct, and pictures and Sir Robert's example, which show a gilt peak may have been made-over Life Guards' helmets.
          The gilt crest had a medusa's head in front, another detail missing in many plates and indiscernible here. The caterpillar plume (named for the caterpillar or the British tiger moth, Arctia caja, perhaps ) made of horsehair for the lowly dragoons (royal or not) was made of silk chenille for the Household Cavalry.
          The plume , white over red, was sufficiently variable in height as to be non diagnostic.
          And I shall have to continue this tomorrow, but here's a pic of a real Horse Guard's Officer, Captain William Robert Clayton in full dress 1815 uniform (though not necessarily what he wore at Waterloo, as we shall see) by Richard StewardsonBut I can't get it to appear. Time for bed!

          But how about that Waterloo medal?
          Cheers,
          Phil
          Last edited by PhilinYuma; 04 Jan 14, 15:30.
          They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
          Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
          At the going down of the sun and in the morning
          We will remember them.

          Rest easy.

          Comment


          • Here you go!


            **********************************************

            There's also this fine rendition of Captain William Tyrwhitt Drake.




            Paul
            Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 04 Jan 14, 00:23.
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
              Here you go!


              **********************************************

              There's also this fine rendition of Captain William Tyrwhitt Drake.




              Paul
              Thanks, Paul. See yours and raise you one. The mandatory Franklin plate(my copy is rather yellowish; the "buff" should be white)

              Your two pix and the plate show the difference between the laced jacket and the frock collet, the latter, apparently, being worn at Waterloo. Unfortunately, this is the coat shown in the schematics of both J. Mollo (Waterloo Uniforms) and Waterloo Men, where Fosten appears to have copied Mollo exactly, even down to the crimson belt that you mention, Paul. I, too had doubted this, but Mollo claims that some officers used it like a waist sash, though I have never seen it illustrated. Franklin has the girdle with three red stripes on the gold, like the captain's. More often, we see two red stripes with a thin stripe top and bottom, possibly due to how the girdle was worn. He does not show the large trefoil "rosette", worn on the left hip and ending in two knotted tassels.
              The red stripes on the lace at the top of Franklin's plate are the "lights" on the gold flash on the foreparts. Officially, the lace lining the edge of an 1814/15 officer's jacket was 4" diamond and four vellum (plain stripes), thereby covering 8" on the front of the chest. The earlier form (1812-1814) appears to have two strips of lace, and if this was attached to a red backing, may have shown as a thin red stripe. The captain appears to be wearing the 1815 pattern, single lace.
              Hamilton Smith, whose prints tend to be the benchmark for the uniforms of this period, has a painting of a trooper (pl 8 in Philip Haythornthwaite's collection) which clearly shows two lace stripes with red backing in between. Note the vestigial red flask cord on his carbine sling (pouch belt for officers), also shown in Paul's pix of Captain Tyrwitt Drake, Carmine's officer, and the Ugo Pericoli plate ( he was the renowned Italian expert on Napoleonic uniforms and technical adviser for the Waterloo film) . This cord, sans flask, was maintained by the RHG long after it went into desuetude, and was even picked up by the Life guards in the late twenties.
              Nearly done! The odd thing about Captain Clayton's portrait is that he is wearing the Waterloo medal. He traded his expensive captaincy in the Blues for a majority in a line infantry regiment (40th foot) in December of 1815, before the medal was issued. It was a practice of the period to save money by simply having the medal added to the painting later. The amusing thing here is that in Mollo's Waterloo Uniforms, we see another iteration of this painting, and this time, he is wearing two medals!
              And that's it. Clad his "netherparts" in white leather breaches, brushed liberally with pipeclay and red ochre, and high black boots; give him a scarlet (or crimson) sabretache lined with the same 4" lace used on the dress jacket and a star emblem, and a 1814 heavy cavalry sword, slung from its own belt riding just below the girdle, and he is ready, if not for Waterloo, then for a sitting with Mr. Stewardson.
              Cheers,
              Phil
              Last edited by PhilinYuma; 04 Jan 14, 15:28.
              They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
              Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
              At the going down of the sun and in the morning
              We will remember them.

              Rest easy.

              Comment


              • Ah yes, but I have already posted the relevant Franklin schematic.

                And here is the info on the headdress.



                Paul
                ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                All human ills he can subdue,
                Or with a bauble or medal
                Can win mans heart for you;
                And many a blessing know to stew
                To make a megloamaniac bright;
                Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                The Pixie is a little shite.

                Comment


                • Thanks guys for this amazing thread and pictures, it is very difficult to know small details of uniforms accurately as there were no cameras at that time and very few full examples of uniforms survive ,also the many artists who have recorded the uniforms in paintings some times contradict each other which does not help to,

                  One thing I can add to this is that the uniform worn by Sir William Robert Clayton in his portrait posted by Dibble201Bty is full Gold Kit ,only worn in the presence of royalty and on state occasions very elaborate and expensive
                  the uniform worn by Col Hill at waterloo in the Horse Guards Museum is undress uniform worn on campaign much plainer and less expensive its is
                  safe to say no one was wearing full gold kit at waterloo

                  Also lace on officers and all other ranks uniforms was in Gold the same as the 1st and 2nd Life Guards, this normally only progressed to Gold with the rank of Sargent in other regiments, lower ranks having yellow lace to look like gold

                  thanks and keep it coming the RHG are one of my favourite regiments and the uniforms they wore are very distinct when nearly all the British army was dressed in scarlet

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                    Ah yes, but I have already posted the relevant Franklin schematic.
                    Paul
                    Yes indeed, and very nice too, though the blue is rather light, (just as mine is rather yellow!), but that is the Frock collet. Tommy Cooper's post (thank you, sir!) confirms that this was the coat worn at Waterloo, but it is not the one that I originally showed, nor that of Captain Clayton. The problem of the red facing only pertains to the dress coat.
                    This may be new to you; it is to me. I have (though God knows where), a copy of Packe's Historical Record of the Blues., but I found, on checking White's bibliography, that there was a later edition with two added plates, one of 1815. Bingo! That is the copy on Google books, and here is the 1815 plate.

                    It is pretty accurate, though the flask cord is inordinately thick, perhaps due to the engraver. I can't read the artist's name, but I'm pretty sure that he was British!
                    How nice to chat about uniforms!
                    Cheers,
                    Phil
                    Last edited by PhilinYuma; 04 Jan 14, 15:17.
                    They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
                    Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
                    At the going down of the sun and in the morning
                    We will remember them.

                    Rest easy.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by PhilinYuma View Post
                      Yes indeed, and very nice too, though the blue is rather light,
                      My Franklin tome is the original edition which has uniform colour issues caused by the printers balls-up. Yours on the other hand is the revised Edition that goes some way to correcting that problem.

                      (just as mine is rather yellow!), but that is the Frock collet. Tommy Cooper's post (thank you, sir!) confirms that this was the coat worn at Waterloo, but it is not the one that I originally showed, nor that of Captain Clayton.
                      I did not remark on the original picture that you posted because to be frank I think it's awful. The torso makes the bloke look as if his head and uniform is on back-to-front and his arms (especially his right) seem to be to long and in an un-natural stance.

                      Here is Tyrwhitt-Drake's Helmet



                      And his sword



                      http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...c=2001-06-16-1

                      His Sabretache worn at Waterloo



                      http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...c=2001-06-18-1

                      Paul
                      Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 04 Jan 14, 16:23.
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • My Franklin tome is the original edition which has uniform colour issues caused by the printers balls-up. Yours on the other hand is the revised Edition that goes some way to correcting that problem.

                        Yes, I have read of this, though I never saw the first edition. Franklin, as you know, went to huge efforts to ensure accurate colours, even peeping under the seems to see unfaded colours. This may be why he parted company with Spellmount after they had announced the issue of his colonial and seven years war book, and went to Pen and Sword for what became his British Army Uniforms 1751-1783 book.

                        "I did not remark on the original picture that you posted because to be frank I think it's awful. The torso makes the bloke look as if his head and uniform is on back-to-front and his arms (especially his right) seem to be to long and in an un-natural stance."
                        ! I guess that that is why Keeble was not exactly a household name among the bon ton. Harrington's British Artists and War has not even heard of him! Still, many of Hamilton Smith's soldiers tell us a lot more about the uniforms of the period than they do about human anatomy.
                        Your latest pix are very interesting, though. I went to the NAM site and saw a closeup of the hilt of the 1796 cavalry sword (as worn by everyone's favorite fictional soldier?) which shows why it was called the "honeysuckle" pattern.
                        The helmet with the brass peak seems to confirm that this was in fact the officers' fashion, like the Life Guards, despite numerous pix, including the Keeble one, showing black leather. Oddly, though the pic by Brian Fosten that you posted, clearly has a brass peak, he describes it in the text as metal rimmed black leather (Men-at-Arms 130).
                        On further search, I have found two paintings of officers of the King's Dragoon Guards wearing the crimson sash over their girdle in Mollo, Waterloo Uniforms, and a Hamilton Smith plate (#6 in Haythornthwaite) of a1st life Guards officer, 1812, wearing a similar sash.
                        And I'm done, except to mention to figure painters that Grenadier Miniatures brought out a very nice and accurate (even down to the Gorgon's head!) 1/10th bust of a1st Life Guards officer in the collet, by Moz Corry, which could easily be converted to a Horse Guard.
                        Cheers,
                        Phil
                        Last edited by PhilinYuma; 04 Jan 14, 20:41.
                        They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
                        Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
                        At the going down of the sun and in the morning
                        We will remember them.

                        Rest easy.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PhilinYuma View Post
                          On further search, I have found two paintings of officers of the King's Dragoon Guards wearing the crimson sash over their girdle in Mollo, Waterloo Uniforms, and a Hamilton Smith plate (#6 in Haythornthwaite) of a1st life Guards officer, 1812, wearing a similar sash.
                          Phil
                          What I meant was that the crimson sash being show in Haythornthwaite's schematic seems to imply that that was what was worn by all the officers at Waterloo as standard dress. Which is why I remarked with the words 'a new one to me'

                          And reminding me of Grenadier Miniatures almost got me buying this little beauty:



                          Paul
                          Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 04 Jan 14, 23:40.
                          ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                          All human ills he can subdue,
                          Or with a bauble or medal
                          Can win mans heart for you;
                          And many a blessing know to stew
                          To make a megloamaniac bright;
                          Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                          The Pixie is a little shite.

                          Comment


                          • Here is another style of helmet clamed to have been worn at waterloo by the Horse Guards and closer to the painting of the mounted Horse Guard cutting down the Cuirassier posted by PhilinYuma

                            http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...=1963-09-313-1



                            would seem the new 1815 uniform was still being finalised in the field with maybe two patterns of helmet being worn at the same time ? as they had only just come out of the longer tail coats and bicorn hats worn in the 1790s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tommy cooper View Post
                              Here is another style of helmet clamed to have been worn at waterloo by the Horse Guards and closer to the painting of the mounted Horse Guard cutting down the Cuirassier posted by PhilinYuma

                              http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...=1963-09-313-1



                              would seem the new 1815 uniform was still being finalised in the field with maybe two patterns of helmet being worn at the same time ? as they had only just come out of the longer tail coats and bicorn hats worn in the 1790s
                              If you study William Robert Clayton's Painting you will see that he is holding what seems to be the pattern of helmet you have posted.

                              Paul
                              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                              All human ills he can subdue,
                              Or with a bauble or medal
                              Can win mans heart for you;
                              And many a blessing know to stew
                              To make a megloamaniac bright;
                              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                              The Pixie is a little shite.

                              Comment


                              • QUOTE=Dibble201Bty;2718507]If you study William Robert Clayton's Painting you will see that he is holding what seems to be the pattern of helmet you have posted.

                                Paul [/QUOTE]
                                There you go! Furthermore, your NAM pic, Tommy, exactly agrees with the Keeble helmet in the original pic [

                                So I was wrong about Keeble being inaccurate about the helmet, except that he has the retrousse, pointed brim of the later pattern unless that was yet another variant. There were only 17 RHG officers on the field at Waterloo (NAM includes the surgeon and two veterinarians in attendance), and it is possible that they wore a mixture of this, apparently earlier, helmet and that worn by Captain Tyrwhitt Blake and Lt Colonel Hill.
                                An officer of the period would order his uniform from his tailor and his shako from his hatter, but few establishments would have the wherewithal to make such a helmet, so they were all likely supplied by the same firm (does anyone know?).
                                This would account for the fact that with the exception of the peak, the metal straps on the leather skull, the chenille or crest, and of course, the oval plate identifying the regiment, the household cavalry and "heavy" dragoons all wore the same helmet, a belief supported by the fact that the commanding officer of the Blues went into battle wearing a Life Guards helmet with a RHG plate.
                                Cheers,
                                Phil
                                Last edited by PhilinYuma; 05 Jan 14, 15:42.
                                They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
                                Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
                                At the going down of the sun and in the morning
                                We will remember them.

                                Rest easy.

                                Comment

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