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  • Les Trophies de la France

    The book Les Trophees de la France (Paris 1907) by Commandant Verillon lists the number of British colors lost to the French during the period 1792-1815. He numbers 42 total colors lost, 22 of them in the Peninsula. He does not list them by regiment, but by campaigns.

    I don't know of any complete listing by regiment in any British publication on the British Army of colors lost for the period, though I have not looked extensively.

    The volume can be found on Google Books:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=xZ...france&f=false


    From page 85 of the afore mentioned volume, this information is taken for captured colors by the French from the main belligerents from 1805-1815. The French lost 60 eagles in the same time period.

    Austria: 230
    Prussia: 370
    Spain: 320
    Russia: 92
    Portugal: 45
    Great Britain: 34
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    The book Les Trophees de la France (Paris 1907) by Commandant Verillon lists the number of British colors lost to the French during the period 1792-1815. He numbers 42 total colors lost, 22 of them in the Peninsula. He does not list them by regiment, but by campaigns.

    I don't know of any complete listing by regiment in any British publication on the British Army of colors lost for the period, though I have not looked extensively.

    The volume can be found on Google Books:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=xZ...france&f=false


    From page 85 of the afore mentioned volume, this information is taken for captured colors by the French from the main belligerents from 1805-1815. The French lost 60 eagles in the same time period.

    Austria: 230
    Prussia: 370
    Spain: 320
    Russia: 92
    Portugal: 45
    Great Britain: 34
    I know you expected a reaction and here it is!

    34? Absolute bollocks! He has doubled the number. And I will gladly donate $1.000 U/S to any charity or anyone if they can bring forth what those 34 were. The only caveat being that they must be Regimental/Kings Colours.

    The same goes for the 22 captured in the Peninsula.

    Have you asked Gazzola over? If you have, I will again only correspond with him if you come up with the goods of the 22 colours supposedly lost in the Peninsula.

    Paul
    Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 09 Mar 16, 16:15.
    ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
    All human ills he can subdue,
    Or with a bauble or medal
    Can win mans heart for you;
    And many a blessing know to stew
    To make a megloamaniac bright;
    Give honour to the dainty Corse,
    The Pixie is a little shite.

    Comment


    • #3
      If you don't agree, then provide information that contradicts what the author has written. If not, then all of your blustering means absolutely nothing.

      Have you taken a look at the source? If nothing else, it's quite interesting.

      Keep your money and your grandstanding. Both are inappropriate.
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Massena View Post
        If you don't agree, then provide information that contradicts what the author has written. If not, then all of your blustering means absolutely nothing.

        Have you taken a look at the source? If nothing else, it's quite interesting.

        Keep your money and your grandstanding. Both are inappropriate.
        You are the one who has and continues to thrown the 22 colours line into the ring so it's you that should bring the evidence where they are concerned.

        The 34 British colours given as being captured as you have outlined, are not dwelt upon, so how is it possible for anyone to disclaim a number that isn't connected to any source.

        The British (if the KGL are included) lost a total of 15 colours in all theatres during the Napoleonic wars 1804-15.

        I don't give a flying fig what you think about my offer! I posted it up there for any takers....If I could get a legal binding, I would offer my flat and all that is contained therein.

        Yup! I love my grandstand.

        PS. Perhaps you could post those campaigns?

        Paul
        Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 09 Mar 16, 19:30.
        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
        All human ills he can subdue,
        Or with a bauble or medal
        Can win mans heart for you;
        And many a blessing know to stew
        To make a megloamaniac bright;
        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
        The Pixie is a little shite.

        Comment


        • #5
          See the massive thread at:

          http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/...=410160&page=1

          Eh.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by write2 View Post
            Cheers! I have just been over there where Brechtel-Massena-Kevin is digging yet another big hole for himself

            Paul
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • #7
              If you don't agree, then provide information that contradicts what the author has written. If not, then all of your blustering means absolutely nothing.
              I wonder why the moderators did not cough up - in case I would have written it - certainly I would get a warning message.

              Nobody would agree with Massenas figures who is able to discuss sources,

              for those who are able to read English

              https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...20wars&f=false

              So - in case even the fragmented colours are taken into account - it is 5 colours lost

              Robert Burnham and Ron McGuigan do usually their homework

              the book by Verillon covers a time period of 1792 - 1895 - certainly of interest, but as usual with all sources, one has to discuss them in context and reliability. It is by no means a special book - like that of Burnham and McGuigan about the British Army in the Peninsular War.

              so it is 5
              and
              not
              22

              Comment


              • #8
                This one takes some beating, Himself, abandoning the Imperial Pisspot!!!



                The long toll of the brave
                Is not lost in darkness
                Over the fruitful earth
                And athwart the seas
                Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                Unquenchable forever.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Trofeos de la reconquista de la cuidad de Buenos Aires: en el año 1806. 1882:

                  https://books.google.com/books?id=JIMyAQAAMAAJ

                  For comment, see the post of 10 Mar 2016 1:53 p.m. PST at:

                  http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/...=410160&page=6

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by write2 View Post
                    Trofeos de la reconquista de la cuidad de Buenos Aires: en el año 1806. 1882:

                    https://books.google.com/books?id=JIMyAQAAMAAJ

                    For comment, see the post of 10 Mar 2016 1:53 p.m. PST at:

                    http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/...=410160&page=6
                    Good to see you saw my post. I had to look through huge amounts of my Photobucket files on my laptop as I am not at home at the moment where the images are neatly filed away on my desktop computer.

                    I have added another two images on that site since your last post.

                    It's a good thing that these colours had been captured as they have survived where almost all the others have either perished in churches, been ceremonially burnt, cut up with pieces being kept as souvenirs, or have molded away in a long dead Colonel's attic.

                    Paul
                    Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 10 Mar 16, 17:08.
                    ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                    All human ills he can subdue,
                    Or with a bauble or medal
                    Can win mans heart for you;
                    And many a blessing know to stew
                    To make a megloamaniac bright;
                    Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                    The Pixie is a little shite.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Musee de l'Armee has published several excellent volumes on their collections, three of them on the French Revolutionary Wars and Napoleonic period.

                      They are filled with photographs of the collection and in Volume II (Napoleon et ses Soldats de Wagram a Waterloo (1809-1815), by Paul Willing, 95)of the Napoleonic books there is a photograph of the 'ecusson centrale' of the King's color of the 48th Foot taken at Albuera.
                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Les Collections historiques du Musée de l'Armée, Vol. 7, Napoléon et ses soldats, tome 2: De Wagram à Waterloo, 1809-1815, p. 95:
                        Colour illustration: “Ecusson central d’un drapeau (King’s colour) du 48e régiment d’infanterie britannique (Northampton) pris a Albuers [en 1811], par le maréchal des logis [chef] Dion d’Aumont du 10e hussards (EO 2844) - As 149 1 - M.A.P [Musée de l'Armée, Paris].”

                        “In Spain the King's Color of II/48th Regiment of Foot was captured by French NCO Dion d'Aumont from the 10th Hussar Regiment. The regimental color of the 48th Northamptonshire was also claimed by the French.”

                        I note a sous-lieut. “de Dion d’Aumont” of the 10e hussards was wounded on 12.x.1813, affaire devant Dessau.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Trophies Of Albuera (May 16, 1811) By Luis Sorando Muzás.

                          See:

                          "Trophies of Albuera (May 16, 1811)" by Luis Sorando Muzás:

                          http://www.napoleon-series.org/milit...ueraflags.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            From John Cook

                            As far as Colborne’s Brigade at Albuera are concerned these are the facts.
                            In a letter written by Captain Gordon of 1/3rd Foot immediately after the battle he described how they were suddenly attacked by enemy cavalry in their right and rear, a mixed force of Vistula Lancers and hussars which was initially mistaken for Spanish horse and had not been seen because of dead ground and smoke. Accounts also talk
                            about a rain and/or hail squall at the same time.
                            The King's colour 1/3rd was carried by Ensign Charles Walsh. The staff had been cut in two by a cannon shot and Walsh was wounded. His attempts to save the colour were seen by Lieutenant Mathew Latham who seized it from him.
                            Latham was attacked by a number of lancers and what was left of the staff was seized by a French hussar who delivered a sabre stroke which cut off the nose and one side of Latham's face. Latham continued to fight off the French cavalry with his sword but a further blow severed his left arm.
                            Latham was thrown to the ground with the colour at which point the 4th Dragoons arrived and scattered the French cavalry. Latham was discovered, some time later, still
                            alive, with the colour which he had removed from the smashed staff and successfully concealed beneath his body.
                            Captain Stevens of the 1/3rd Foot recounts how Ensign Edward Thomas refused to surrender the Regimental colour when called upon to do so, at which point he was killed and the colour carried away (by Captain Vincent Konopka of the Vistula Lancers).
                            However, Major Mervin Nooth of 1/7th Foot described in a letter written immediately after the battle how his battalion had recaptured some abandoned British guns which
                            had fallen into the hands of the French and Sergeant Gough of 1/7th had discovered the Regimental colour of 1/3rd Foot with these trophies.
                            Captain Gordon of 1/3rd confirmed that the colours which were "were taken and retaken three times, are now in our possession fixed on two halberds.".
                            Soult in his despatch, apparently, claimed the capture of a colour of the 3rd Foot, but this was wrong at least insofar as the French did not retain it. The regimental inspection returns to the Inspector of Colours in 1813 show both Albuera colours still in the hands of 1/3rd Foot, described as "so worn and disfigured that I cannot report on them.".
                            These remained in use, nevertheless, until the end of the war in 1814, when a new set was presented.So, 1/3rd Foot did not loose their colours at Albuera.
                            2/31st Foot appears to have been in reserve, insofar as it was away to the left, had not deployed for the fire fight and was still in column. It was able, as a result, to form
                            square quickly and there has never been any suggestion that 2/31st lost colours.
                            Furthermore, the survivors of 1/3rd were combined with 2/31st, 1/57th and 2/66th to form 1st Provisional battalion commanded by Colonel Leith of 2/31st. It is documented that this battalion carried the colours of 2/31st Foot. 1st Provisional battalion was at Estremoz until August 1811 by which time returning prisoners from 1/3rd and 1/57th, together with drafts from 2/3rd in England, meant that 1/3rd and 1/57th could be reformed under their own identities.
                            The King's Colour 2/48th was taken by Marechal de Logi Dion d'Aumont of 10th Hussars. The Regimental Colour of 2/48th is also claimed by the French but I have no further details.
                            Letters written by Lt Dobbins and Lt George Crompton of 2/66th confirm the loss of both colours from that battalion. Dobbins wrote "I am sorry to say that the French got our colours, but not until we had two officers killed, two wounded and nine sergeants killed and wounded defending them.". Crompton confirms that the King's and
                            Regimental colours were lost.
                            Inspection returns of 2/66th in 1813 show only "Only half the battalion at Roncesvalles, forming the left wing of the provisional battalion; no colours retained. It had sent its colours (quite new) to Lisbon in 1812.". These colours were replacements for those lost at Albuera but as 1st Provisional battalion was still carrying those of 2/31st, 2/66th had no need of them.
                            To summarise:
                            1/3rd retained their King’s colour and recovered their Regimental colour.
                            2/31st did not loose any colours.
                            2/48th definitely lost their King’s colour and probably lost their Regimental colour.
                            2/66th definitely lost both their King’s and Regimental colours.
                            So, the total lost was at least three and probably four.
                            Other French claims of capturing British colours, that I know of, are as follows:
                            Four colours taken at Talavera one of which was by marechal de logis Legout-Duplessis of 5e dragons. The colours are not identified by French records and I have yet to find any British documentation to substantiate the claim.
                            One colour taken at Almeida by the troops of general Loison on 24 July 1810. The regiment from which the colour was taken is not identified and I have yet to find British evidence.
                            Six colours taken at Albuera. It is established beyond doubt that this is not correct and that only a maximum of four were taken.
                            One colour taken at Salamanca by sous-lieutenant Gullinat of 118e of line. Marmont says in his report that the colour was brought to him after he had been wounded and placed on his stretcher. The colour, again, is not identified and no British evidence has turned up yet. Napoleon said of Marmont's report that it "contained not a word of truth as to the real state of things.", but then he was probably a bit pissed-off with him.
                            General Delaborde reported subsequent to Rolica that a colour belonging to 69th Foot was taken but couldn't be found after the retreat. This would make 69th Foot a singularly unlucky regiment but it wasn't, as far as I can see, present at Rolica.
                            This totals thirteen allegedly taken in the Peninsula of which it is possible to identify four. Neither Jean Regnault nor Pierre Charrié are able to identify the others so they remain a mystery.
                            The authorities of the Musée de l'Armée say that amongst the trophies from Albuera were the King's and Regimental of 1/3rd. The King's was aupposedly destroyed by the mob in 1830 and the Regimental burned during Sebastiani's funeral in 1851. This is impossible unless these artifacts were pieces of the colours. Both were fought over and badly damaged in the process and it is not impossible that the French retained pieces. The main parts of what were left of the colours were definitely retained by the regiment. The King's colour of 2/66th was also destroyed in 1830 and the Regimental did not find its way to the collection until 1865. All that remains of two colours of 2/48th is the central design from one of them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The following is taken from Albuera 1811 by Guy Dempsey, Appendix E, 296:

                              'There has historically been a great deal of confusion about the number of British colors lost at the Battle of Albuera. Soult claimed that his army captured a total of six colos during the battle, but British sources admit the loss of no more than four colors. The definitive answer is that the British force last five colors in all-the king's color and the regimental color of both the 2d Battalion of the 48th Foot and the 2d Battalion of the 66th Foot and the regimental color of the 3d Foot (or buffs). However, the last of these was recovered on the battlefield by a soldier from another regiment, which left a total of four colors in French hands. The claim by the French that they captured more than four colors is, however, quite understandable since the French did temporarily capture one other color intact and ultimately managed to carry off the flagstaffs of both colors of the Buffs. Nevertheless, that claim can be legitimately disputed by the Buffs since they retained large portions of the colors themselves after they had been ripped from their staffs.'
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment

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