Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Napoleon's 'Crimes'

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Napoleon's 'Crimes'

    Emtos remarked in the Berezina thread that Napoleon had committed 'crimes' during his tenure and reign as French head of state. He offered in 'evidence' the following:

    http://www.newcastle.edu.au/Resource...acre-Paper.pdf

    The paper is poorly done to my mind and I couldn't find an author listed for it.

    The first issue the paper brings up is the execution of enemy troops at Jaffa after the French took the city. The reason for the execution is that those troops had been captured and paroled by the French already, and having broken their parole they were subject to execution.

    Sincerely,
    M
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    Emtos remarked in the Berezina thread that Napoleon had committed 'crimes' during his tenure and reign as French head of state. He offered in 'evidence' the following:

    http://www.newcastle.edu.au/Resource...acre-Paper.pdf

    The paper is poorly done to my mind and I couldn't find an author listed for it.
    Of course, it's poorly written - there's no slavering adulation of Nappy and condoning of anything wrong he did!

    The author is Professor Philip Dwyer http://www.newcastle.edu.au//staff/r.../Philip_Dwyer/

    The first issue the paper brings up is the execution of enemy troops at Jaffa after the French took the city. The reason for the execution is that those troops had been captured and paroled by the French already, and having broken their parole they were subject to execution.
    And how does this explain the orgy of rape and murder of civilian population? This is what the author stressed. How lovely to see you lie and mislead people again, Mr. Politruk

    Beside this episode there are mentions of Pavia, Algodonales, Cordoba, etc, not countirng the thosands of villages and towns in Russia ravaged by Napoleon's troops.

    The subject was mainly brought up here beause of your ridiculous double standards in dealing with different armies. You've aready been shown your bias in comparing the battles of Berezina and Borodino. And you still keep banging on about Suvorov's storming of Warsaw as if it was an unprecedented atrocity for any European army, while Napoleon and his subordinate commanders did this on a routine basis. Yet you pretend that they did nothing wrong.

    For those who haven't seen the debate about Suvorov - here is my post in that thread.
    This is where I quoted the abovementioned study and provided the description of the battle of Warsaw. Seems like we're doing circles here, but you can see I can't be blamed for this. Every single time Massena was confronted with solid argumentation, he either failed to respond or ran away, tucking his tail and yanking about being treated without due respect.
    Last edited by ShAA; 01 Dec 12, 08:42.
    www.histours.ru

    Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

    Comment


    • #3
      Posted by Welligton in the other thread.

      http://news.yahoo.com/napoleons-secr...050329066.html


      FONTAINEBLEAU, France (AP) — The single line of Napoleon's secret code told Paris of his desperate, last order against the Russians: "At three o'clock in the morning, on the 22nd I am going to blow up the Kremlin."
      By the time Paris received the letter three days later, the Russian czar's seat of power was in flames and the diminished French army was in retreat. Its elegantly calligraphic ciphers show history's famed general at one of his weakest moments.

      "My cavalry is in tatters, many horses are dying," dictated Napoleon, the once-feared leader showing the strain of his calamitous Russian invasion, which halved his army.

      The rare document — dated Oct. 20, 1812, signed "Nap" in the emperor's hand and written in numeric code — is up for auction Sunday at France's Fontainebleau Auction House.

      The Napoleon code, used only for top-secret letters when the French emperor was far from home, aimed to stop enemies from intercepting French army orders. The code was regularly changed to prevent it from being cracked.

      Napoleon must have dispatched his strongest horses and riders to carry the news: It only took three days to reach France's interior ministry — 1,540 miles (2,480 kilometers) across Europe.

      "This letter is unique. Not only is it all in code, but it's the first time we see this different Napoleon. He went into Moscow in 1812 at the height of his power. He returned profoundly weakened. In Moscow, the Russians had fled days before and burnt down the city. There was no victory for Napoleon, nor were there any provisions for his starving, dying army," says Jean-Christophe Chataignier of the auction house.

      The only thing left for the weakened leader was to give the order to burn Russia's government buildings — coded in the letter as "449, 514, 451, 1365..."

      It is evidence of what historians call the beginning of the end of Napoleon's glorious empire, which started in Russia and ended at Waterloo three years later.

      In June 1812, Napoleon's "Grand Army" — at 600,000 men one of the largest in human history — confidently entered Russia. But they were woefully unprepared for the harsh weather, the strong Russian defense and the Russian scorched-earth tactics, which left nothing behind to sustain the hungry and freezing French troops.

      "This letter is an incredible insight, we never see Napoleon emotively speaking in this way before," says Chataignier. "Only in letters to (his wife) Josephine did he ever express anything near to emotion. Moscow knocked him."

      In the text — which announces that his commanders are evacuating Moscow — Napoleon laments his army's plight, asking for assistance to replenish his forces and the ravaged cavalry, which saw thousands of horses die.

      In September, 200 years after Russia's victory over Napoleon, the Kremlin held huge celebrations aimed at rousing patriotism among modern Russians. The highlight was a re-enactment of the battle of Borodino — one of the most damaging clashes for Napoleon's troops — which saw thousands in Russian and French military uniforms perform before several hundred thousand spectators.

      The 1812 victory played an important role in Russia's emergence as a major world power. Until World War I, Napoleon's Russian campaign and the ensuing wars were the largest European military face-off in history.

      The letter, which is accompanied by a second decoded sheet, is estimated to fetch up to €15,000 ($19,500).

      How you would call it, the destruction of historical buildings ? I call it free violence from a caged beast and not a civilised man.
      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

      Comment


      • #4
        Well I'm sure we should investigate the accuracy of that source first, rather than take it as Gospel and historical certainty.

        In this photo taken Wednesday, Nov. 28, 2012, a letter dictated and signed by Napoleon in secret code that declares his intentions "to blow up the Kremlin" during his ill-fated Russian campaign is displayed in Fontainebleau, outside Paris. The rare letter, written in unusually emotive language, sees Napoleon complain of harsh conditions and the shortcomings of his grand army. The letter goes on auction Sunday, Dec. 2, 2012. (AP Photo/Christophe Ena)

        Coded:

        "I am the Lorax, and I'll yell and I'll shout for the fine things on earth that are on their way out!"

        ~Dr. Seuss, The Lorax


        "The trouble with Scotland...is that it's full of Scots!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Many (if not most) of Russian prisoners that followed with the Grand Armee retreating from Moscow were shot as they were too weak to continue the march.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well I'm sure we should investigate the accuracy of that source first, rather than take it as Gospel and historical certainty.
            http://archive.kremlin.ru/eng/articles/history_09.shtml


            The 19th century brought with it tragic times for Moscow.

            On September 2, 1812, French troops took the city and Napoleon tried to establish his residence in the Kremlin. Two French regiments were quartered in the Senate building. When the French began their retreat, Napoleon gave orders to blow up the Kremlin. Mines were laid beneath many of the Kremlin buildings and towers. But the effort, entrusted to Marshal Mortier, was only a partial success because the night brought heavy rain that dampened the burning fuses, while some of them were noticed and extinguished by vigilant Muscovites.

            Nonetheless, parts of the Kremlin were seriously damaged. The biggest of the five explosions that went off was the first, which blew out all the glass and even the window frames in the Kremlin and neighboring buildings. The Vodozvodnaya Tower was entirely demolished and the Nikolskaya Tower was half destroyed. Parts of the Arsenal were destroyed, and the Faceted Palace, the Filaret Annex and the Commandant’s building were all damaged. The palace walls and the Armory building were left blackened by the flames. The Kremlin cathedrals also suffered substantial damage. During the fire, the Senate building was also damaged and the bronze St. George that had graced the dome of its Round Hall disappeared without a trace. One version of the story said the sculpture melted in the flames; according to another, the French army removed it, along with two other objects that were the Kremlin’s pride – an eagle from the Nikolsky Gates and a cross from the Ivan the Great Bell Tower – and took them as war trophies.
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

            Comment


            • #7
              I think this topic makes no sense. Napoleon did nothing more or extraordinary that wasn`t done by other European rulers or nations in the same period. Lots of Grande Armee prisoners were brutally murdered by Spanish guerillas, Russian partisans (Figner for example) or Prussian`s regular soldiers after battle of Waterloo. Napoleon executed Duke of d'Enghien, but before and after that Bourbons tried to kill him with assassin`s help several times. The only crime that he could be probably accused is assassination of Turkish prisoners in Egypt but this also was dictated more by need and not his free will and these Turkish soldiers broke their promise not to fight again against the French troops.
              Last edited by Ulrih; 02 Dec 12, 01:55.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ulrih View Post
                I think this topic makes no sense. Napoleon did nothing more or extraordinary that wasn`t done by other European rulers or nations in the same period. Lots of Grande Armee prisoners were brutally murdered by Spanish guerillas, Russian partisans (Figner for example) or Prussian`s regular soldiers after battle of Waterloo. Napoleon executed Duke of Angulem, but before and after that Bourbons tried to kill him with assassin`s help several times. The only crime that he could be probably accused is assassination of Turkish prisoners in Egypt but this also was dictated more by need and not his free will and these Turkish soldiers broke their promise not to fight again against the French troops.
                How can they be blamed for the killing of the enemies who invaded their homeland ?
                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                Comment


                • #9
                  they can be blame to kill men disarmed yet it is not difficult to understand
                  Napoleon and so is a criminal as any officer sending men to war ...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                    How can they be blamed for the killing of the enemies who invaded their homeland ?
                    So it is justifiable in your eyes to kill prisoners of war so long as they are invaders and not ok to kill defending pows. Ah that makes sense eh?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      'Those who seek to know Napoleon's private nature through his political career run the risk of harboring a very wrong impression. In this way you would attribute to him all the faults of strong and violent men, without taking into account all the qualities which are inseparable from his strength of spirit.'

                      '...Far from being evil, Napoleon was naturally good. If he had been evil with so much power at his disposal, would he be reproached for two or three acts of violence or anger during a government that lasted fifteen years!'

                      'The hot blood of Corsica ran in his veins; but the restraint of command had early accustomed him to moderate his first reaction. He had some difficulty tolerating the contradiction, particularly when things were awkward, if they came by surprise, and the proprieties had not been observed; but if he got carried away at times, he recovered promptly. 'His anger, like that of Agricola, left no trace. You had neither his silence nor his rancor to fear; he thought it better to wound than to hate.' Many people know that it is an advantage to be wounded by a generous hand. 'I would have such mercy the first time I am beaten,' said the minister Decres. In truth the Emperor was not angry that people feared him a bit. What he dreaded most was appearing too easy. His outbursts were almost always calculated. 'It is necessary,' he would say, when he wished to justify what he called his harshness, 'it is necessary; without that they would come to eat out of my hand.'

                      'At home Napoleon was a sure friend and the best of masters. His personal conversation was full of charm and originality. No matter what subject he dealt with, he never failed to bring an element of cheerfulness to his observation.'

                      From Napoleon: How He Did It by Baron Fain.

                      'Napoleon had reigned as a true emperor, lawgiver, and builder. His Code Napoleon, which modernized and systematized French law in clear language, is still the basis of French law and has had worldwide influence. He built no new palaces but left a mighty heritage of harbors, highways, bridges, drained swamps and canals. He planted trees along his roads; set up a government office to protect France's forests, lakes and rivers; gave Paris better water and sewer systems, is first public fire department, an improved opera, and the modern system of street numbers. Wherever his rule ran, there was freedom of religion, basic human rights, better hospitals, orphanages, and public sanitation...he encouraged vast improvements in French agriculture and built up an enlarged system of public and private education. Just as important was his emphasis on competence and honesty in his officials. All careers were open to men of talent who would serve loyally, regardless of family background or political orientation. Also, he balanced his budgets; even in 1814 France had practically no national debt. And he ruled as a civilian head of state, never as a military dictator.'-John Elting, The Superstrategists, 144-145.

                      '[Napoleon] could get such service out of his men because he shared (portions of the 1812 campaign excepted) his men's dangers and hardships, riding just behind his advance guard, often taking what fortune might send in the way of food and shelter-a tumble-down farm building with some straw for his bed and rain and wind for company; a few potatoes, roasted in the embers of a campfire and shared with his staff, for supper. In action, he was fearless; after a battle he was concerned for the wounded. (Quite contrary to the usual concept of Naoleon, he was careful of his soldier's health and had a surprising commonsense knowledge on the subject.) He rewarded good service generously, sought to be just and patient. He won a legendary devotion, the 'Vive l'Empereur!' that echoes yet across the centuries...He was generous with friend and foe, humane, and always grateful for favors done him when he was young, poor, and lonely.'-John Elting, 140, 147.

                      Sincerely,
                      M
                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The biggest thing I can think of off the top of my head that Napoleon did crime-wise would be the execution of d'Enghien and usurping the Spanish throne. The Spanish royalty and d'Enghien were all Burbons so little wonder there. Also that bit with annexing the Papal States and exiling Pope Pius VII might be thrown in there as well although it is debatable.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by michaelozzie View Post
                          So it is justifiable in your eyes to kill prisoners of war so long as they are invaders and not ok to kill defending pows. Ah that makes sense eh?
                          Spanish guerillas and Russian partisans were not regular forces. Their answer in a similar way to those who agressed them.
                          There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Drewzy View Post
                            The biggest thing I can think of off the top of my head that Napoleon did crime-wise would be the execution of d'Enghien and usurping the Spanish throne. The Spanish royalty and d'Enghien were all Burbons so little wonder there. Also that bit with annexing the Papal States and exiling Pope Pius VII might be thrown in there as well although it is debatable.
                            The Papal States were a mess and needed a desperate facelift-the pope deserved what he got.

                            D'Enghien got caught up in the assassination attempts of the Bourbons, supported by Great Britain, against Napoleon. He was found guilty of violating the law of 6 October 1791, Section 2: 'Any conspiracy and plot aimed at disturbing the State by civil war, and arming the citizens against one another or against lawful authority, will be punished by death.' (Vincent Cronin, Napoleon Bonaparte: An Intimate Biography, 244).

                            When d'Enghien was questioned by the officers making up the court-martial, he said 'in order to combat not France but a government to which his birth had made him hostile. I asked England if I might serve in her armies, but she replied that that was impossible: I must wait on the Rhine, where I would have a part to play immediately, and I was in fact waiting.'-Cronin, 243-244.

                            The British were paying d'Enghien 4200 guineas a year.

                            D'enghien was a Frenchman who was charged with conspiracy in time of war, and because of the charge and alleged crime 'he was subject to a military court.'-Cronin, 243.

                            Napoleon's comment on the trial and execution was that it was 'a just reprisal.' Further that 'The House of Bourbon must learn that the attacks it directs against others can come down on itself...If he goes unpunished, factions will thrive again and I shall have to persecute, deport, and condemn unceasingly.'-Cronin, 244.

                            Regarding Spain, who was supposed to be Napoleon's ally, when the French entered Berlin they found secret correspondence from the Spanish government to that of Prussia, stating that if the Prussians won, the Spanish would turn on Napoleon. Both branches of the Bourbon family were the authors of their own misfortune.

                            Sincerely,
                            M
                            We are not now that strength which in old days
                            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                              Spanish guerillas and Russian partisans were not regular forces. Their answer in a similar way to those who agressed them.
                              The 'reason' for the Spanish invasion and the replacement of the ruling house is covered in Esdaile, Napoleon's Wars.

                              The reason for the Russian invasion is covered quite well in Lieven. Alexander decided on war with France by 1810 and coveted the Duchy of Warsaw, attempting to bully the Poles into accepting his suzerainty, which the Poles ignored or refused, having had enough of foreign overlordship, and wanted nothing to do with Russia.

                              Sincerely,
                              M
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X