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German campaign of 1813 without Austrian intervention

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  • German campaign of 1813 without Austrian intervention

    Without Austria, could the allies, Russia and Prussia, have defeated Napoleon in Germany in 1813?
    20
    Yes
    20.00%
    4
    No
    80.00%
    16
    My avatar: Center of the Cross of the Légion d'honneur (Legion of Honour) of the First French Empire (Napoleonic Era), 3rd type (awarded between 1806-1808). My Légion d'honneur. :-)

  • #2
    Full disclosure to all of you...

    I don't have an agenda (hidden or otherwise). I don't want to blame Austria for ending the rule of Napoleon or anyting else. Finally, I'm not a paranoid man and I don't have a crystal ball.

    In 1813, Napoleon won two hard-fought victories at Lützen and Bautzen against Prussia and Russia. The outcome of the campaign was hanging on the balance before the armistice (during this time Allied negotiations finally brought Austria out in open opposition to France).

    My question is simple and this kind of poll is supposed to be fun (without any agenda).
    My avatar: Center of the Cross of the Légion d'honneur (Legion of Honour) of the First French Empire (Napoleonic Era), 3rd type (awarded between 1806-1808). My Légion d'honneur. :-)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Zouave View Post
      Full disclosure to all of you...

      I don't have an agenda (hidden or otherwise). I don't want to blame Austria for ending the rule of Napoleon or anyting else. Finally, I'm not a paranoid man and I don't have a crystal ball.

      In 1813, Napoleon won two hard-fought victories at Lützen and Bautzen against Prussia and Russia. The outcome of the campaign was hanging on the balance before the armistice (during this time Allied negotiations finally brought Austria out in open opposition to France).

      My question is simple and this kind of poll is supposed to be fun (without any agenda).
      Zouave my mate....you are asking a simple question..some 'members' think because you mention Austria, it is their poxy domain...bugger them, they want to spoil the enjoyment of history....then i feel sorry for their sad existence....pity them for their nastiness and being petty. We know the fool who questions this...do as the others do ignore him.
      Last edited by Post Captain; 06 May 12, 14:44.
      Never Fear the Event

      Admiral Lord Nelson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DaveHollinsMBA
        Probably not, given the length of Russian LoCs, but a rather pointless question, given Austria's position. It is like asking how UK would have got on against Nazi Germany without US involvemnet (assuming adolf hadn't declared war).

        It will also be construed by some on here as an opportunity to "blame" Austria for ending the rule of that nice Mr. Bonaparte.
        There are no pointless questions...everything is open for discussion here.
        However, you have just provided a pointless answer and it is a waste of space.
        Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

        It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

        Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

        BORG

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Mickey for deleting this pointless answer...
          Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

          It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

          Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

          BORG

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stratego View Post
            Thanks Mickey for deleting this pointless answer...
            As i shall do with this person..an enemy of Napoleonic history.
            Last edited by Stratego; 06 May 12, 15:02.
            Never Fear the Event

            Admiral Lord Nelson

            Comment


            • #7
              This is why U can't deal with this guy, he is mister know-it-all...

              Oh did I mention rude and ignorant.

              Comment


              • #8
                And one i can delete for trolling... Funny how this 'great historian' keeps coming to a site where he is most unwelcome, then again it is just to do what he does best...be rude and insulting. At least we have a real historian in Kevin, who happens to be a gentleman and if us Amateurs make an error he politely corrects us.
                Last edited by Post Captain; 08 May 12, 02:18.
                Never Fear the Event

                Admiral Lord Nelson

                Comment


                • #9
                  To be quite honest I like David because he fights his corner from the Austrian camp (who else does that?). OK, he may over egg his argument and appears to have an agenda with Kevin that at times borders on the obsessive and may give a 'sharp edge' to him and others but when It does come to Austria, he is pretty damn good.

                  And here is the bit you may not like! Why censor his post? It was his opinion, he may have come up sharp, he may have posted comments within it that pointed the sword at the Napoleon admirers camp, (I do it all the time, can I expect censorship in the future?) he none the less gave an opinion of what he though of the scenario, more than what I am doing at the moment because like him I see the poll as pointless here and should be sent to the alternate timeline stickie 'just my opinion though!'.

                  Paul
                  ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                  All human ills he can subdue,
                  Or with a bauble or medal
                  Can win mans heart for you;
                  And many a blessing know to stew
                  To make a megloamaniac bright;
                  Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                  The Pixie is a little shite.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes Paul you stand your ground...but you do not do it a nasty way...a big difference. Some members in the past have been banned for name calling and insults to other members...but as of now Hollins is on my ignore list....i could not care less what the Austrians have done....no interest to me as this fool has in his usual pig ignorant way has pointed out...don't speak German, don't do this and so on, so i have no rights to comment on Austria. I sometime thought he was an interesting historian not anymore..his Osprey Marengo has been consigned to the bin....i am not worthy to read it after all
                    And at the end of it all...he is killing interest in what Austria achieved in this period...and it will be consigned to history's dustbin..because someone with a degree thinks they own Austria's history and is so arrogant not to listen or correct people's mistakes.. in a polite and decent way...pity him. Pity him that a degree could not make him a decent human being.
                    Last edited by Post Captain; 08 May 12, 13:51.
                    Never Fear the Event

                    Admiral Lord Nelson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                      Why censor his post? It was his opinion, he may have come up sharp, he may have posted comments within it that pointed the sword at the Napoleon admirers camp, (I do it all the time, can I expect censorship in the future?)
                      Paul,

                      This is unfair coming from you.

                      Have you ever been censored here at the Napoleonic forum (when you stood your ground)? I don't think so.

                      How many times have you ever been censored by me? Zero!

                      You and Mr. Hollins are worlds apart.

                      This forum has been very quiet in the last 2 years. Nowadays, most of the posts deal with uniforms and plates. That's fine, I love a good plate, but I would like to see more debate.

                      With that in mind, very late at night, I decided to create a new poll, to try and spark things up. Oh boy... Didn't I do that (in the wrong way)?

                      Rest assured... I will think very carefully before ever creating a new poll or thread.

                      Have a nice day.
                      My avatar: Center of the Cross of the Légion d'honneur (Legion of Honour) of the First French Empire (Napoleonic Era), 3rd type (awarded between 1806-1808). My Légion d'honneur. :-)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Zouave View Post
                        Rest assured... I will think very carefully before ever creating a new poll or thread.
                        Don't you ever think twice before posting a thread Z...or anybody else for that matter!

                        Everybody is allowed to post whatever they want on Napoleonic history here as my name is Jason...

                        If you can't give an answer, because you don't have enough knowledge, then you don't reply and wait for someone else to respond and dig in afterwards if you feel like it.

                        If you think you have an answer/opinion then you post it, if is wrong, then I expect other forum members to react to it in a decent way!

                        If you post an answer and those that do not agree then that's where the debates start in a decent way!

                        Accusing someone of a 'pointless thread' is ridiculous. Then just don't answer and offer others the possibility to react to it...
                        Since when do we judge a thread here?

                        I will not go elaborate any further on this...these are the rules!
                        Live with them or get out!



                        Greets,
                        Stratego
                        Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                        It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                        Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                        BORG

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I would tend to agree with Zouave here Paul. If you are discussing Napoleonic period some of that discussion will inevitably spill over into a "what if" situation.
                          If you dont want a forum that has bits and pieces of threads all over the place then keeping them within the era is the best place.
                          Also like Paul I feel the Napoleonic forum has become ho humm, we need gritty stuff to re-kindle some stirring debate and discussion.

                          In regard to Dave Hollins I do admire his tenacity and like others regard his knowledge of Austria quite valuable, its his personality I have issues with but in the whole when he becomes over-bearing I just move on and read the next thread.
                          An 18th century Imagi nation blog set in England/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DaveHollinsMBA
                            If you disagree, then please illuminate us (or perhaps just me) on Austrian policy. Please quote from national materials and good secondary analysis, not the trite nonsense of the well-known recent authors, who could not even read German.
                            So, in short Mr. Hollins if I got it right before I can answer this thread I must:
                            -Have access to national material
                            -Search good secondary analysis
                            -And I must pick some good well known authors - a list which you will provide I hope as good or bad authors is a question of mere 'taste'.

                            In short, It's practically impossible for me - or the regular poster with not enough intelligence - to respond to this thread

                            Now please illuminate me.



                            Greets,
                            Stratego
                            Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                            It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                            Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                            BORG

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Zouave View Post
                              Paul,

                              This is unfair coming from you.

                              Have you ever been censored here at the Napoleonic forum (when you stood your ground)? I don't think so.

                              How many times have you ever been censored by me? Zero!

                              You and Mr. Hollins are worlds apart.

                              This forum has been very quiet in the last 2 years. Nowadays, most of the posts deal with uniforms and plates. That's fine, I love a good plate, but I would like to see more debate.

                              With that in mind, very late at night, I decided to create a new poll, to try and spark things up. Oh boy... Didn't I do that (in the wrong way)?

                              Rest assured... I will think very carefully before ever creating a new poll or thread.

                              Have a nice day.
                              Err! Did I say that I have been censored? no! Did I ever say that I have been Censored by you? no! Please note the words "in the future"

                              You created a new poll, Good! Mr Hollins replied with an opinion, harsh but also in agreement with what I thought! 'It's what debate is all about' If the opinion is not liked then it should either be ignored 'we all know how to do that', questioned, argued over or agreed with. Mr Hollins may sit on a pile of first hand native Austrian accounts in an ivory tower 'and he may eat at the same table as 'Hofi' (someone who I detest but I still read his tomes and if he wanted to spout his agenda off without personal attacks,then it's OK by me.) but what we have to realise is that to be honest, Austria is seen as (a certain battle in 1809 aside) the whipping boys in the wars against Napoleon. David probably sees his side of the argument like the man in the wheelchair with lots people talking over his head on a topic and ignoring what he has to say to the contrary so ends up getting annoyed and frustrated then shouting to get himself heard; After all, he is way behind the Nappy, Dukie, and bluchie popularity stakes on this and most other Napoleonic history forums

                              I, like the rest of you at times cringe at the forthright replies that he makes to Kevin on here and another site, which sometimes makes me feel sorry for Kevin, but I am sure that Kevin can 'and does' fight his own corner and what must be remembered is that in general, they argue on topic, which though it might get heated, is argued within the boundary of the forum rules. The other thing about two academics squabbling is that at times, they bring interesting points to the table.

                              Zouave and Mickey, I can tell you both now that the last thing I want is to put your noses out of joint, I see you both as the pillars that hold up this Napoleonic forum for all other sites to admire with wonder but please be assured that all I am doing is giving an opinion, not inflaming.

                              I normally always vote in polls but this one was an exception, I was not even going to comment on the topic because I did not want to be critical but I read David's reply which was as I said earlier "forthright" but did not breech any rules, then saw that his post was taken down which I must admit rather annoyed me to the point that I had to respond and now have to defend my reason for doing so.

                              Paul
                              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                              All human ills he can subdue,
                              Or with a bauble or medal
                              Can win mans heart for you;
                              And many a blessing know to stew
                              To make a megloamaniac bright;
                              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                              The Pixie is a little shite.

                              Comment

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