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  • #46
    One thing that's always puzzled me in military books is the fact that combat survivors often get a "guilt complex" that gives them bad dreams for years afterwards because they can't seem to handle the fact that they survived but their mates didn't.
    Why they don't just think "I was simply lucky but they weren't", and move on with their lives?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
      One thing that's always puzzled me in military books is the fact that combat survivors often get a "guilt complex" that gives them bad dreams for years afterwards because they can't seem to handle the fact that they survived but their mates didn't.
      Why they don't just think "I was simply lucky but they weren't", and move on with their lives?
      Because that isn't how the human mind works. Survivors guilt has been recorded in survivors of the Titanic, the Lusitania, Auschwitz, various train disasters etc etc. There will be tein towrs survivors and Grenfel residents who have it. I've heard recordings of survivors from mine disasters who have it. I had four university friends who were in a car crash with a lorry when the brakes failed, one survived - he had it. It's not a military phenomenon and it's not something the concious mind can control although there are things it can do to mitigate it if it knows how.

      It's possibly because we evolved as a social animal that lived in troops. I have read that Sociopaths and Psychopaths do not suffer from it
      Last edited by MarkV; 15 Nov 17, 14:09.
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
        One thing that's always puzzled me in military books is the fact that combat survivors often get a "guilt complex" that gives them bad dreams for years afterwards because they can't seem to handle the fact that they survived but their mates didn't.
        Why they don't just think "I was simply lucky but they weren't", and move on with their lives?
        It puzzles you because you did not experience it...........

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        • #49
          Re 'guilt complex'- thanks guys, yes I suppose none of us know how we'll handle traumas, I like to think I'd have the same tough mindset of the Brit soldier in the Falklands War who saw his mate get blown up and killed on a motorbike after delivering the mail to the front line troops.
          He said- "It could have been worse, he might have got blown up before he'd delivered it"

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
            Re 'guilt complex'- thanks guys, yes I suppose none of us know how we'll handle traumas, I like to think I'd have the same tough mindset of the Brit soldier in the Falklands War who saw his mate get blown up and killed on a motorbike after delivering the mail to the front line troops.
            He said- "It could have been worse, he might have got blown up before he'd delivered it"
            Given that it doesn't kick in immediately and is generated somewhere in the sub concious that sort of gallows humour is no guide. Incidentally it doesn't have to be a violent incident that can start it. From my management consultant days when I qualified to teach change management I can remember being told that when a company collapses and most of the staff are made redundant the one's that get kept on often experience feelings of guilt and their performance suffers. It's being amongst the few that survive rather than the many who perish that seems to trigger it rather than the nature of the incident in the first place. I have a feeling that it isn't part of PTSD for that reason but a separate problem that PTSD sufferers may well also have. As we are essentially an ape with a large brain it may originate with something that encouraged troop solidarity in times of adversity.
            Last edited by MarkV; 16 Nov 17, 11:24.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post
              ..I can remember being told that when a company collapses and most of the staff are made redundant the one's that get kept on often experience feelings of guilt and their performance suffers..
              Yes maybe shrinks can explain it. Personally I think people who've got a strong religious/philosophical/humorous mindset are much less prone to any psychological upsets.
              For example I don't want to toot my own horn but in 2002 I was just out of Leicester Prison (England) after serving a 3-month vigilante rap, jobless, womanless, near-penniless, homeless and living rough in a tent in a remote wood near Cheltenham, shivering with thyroid problems, but not for an instant was I downhearted because I was too busy laughing at myself-
              "Oh great" I thought, "I've ended up as Bigfoot"..

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                Re 'guilt complex'- thanks guys, yes I suppose none of us know how we'll handle traumas, I like to think I'd have the same tough mindset of the Brit soldier in the Falklands War who saw his mate get blown up and killed on a motorbike after delivering the mail to the front line troops.
                He said- "It could have been worse, he might have got blown up before he'd delivered it"



                Sounds like a tragic incident. Do you have a reference for that story? Where, when or which book? Thanks in advance.
                "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                G.B Shaw

                "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

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                • #53
                  Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike -I like to think I'd have the same tough mindset of the Brit soldier in the Falklands War who saw his mate get blown up and killed on a motorbike after delivering the mail to the front line troops.
                  He said- "It could have been worse, he might have got blown up before he'd delivered it"

                  --------------------------------------------------------
                  Originally posted by Sergio View Post
                  [/B]Sounds like a tragic incident. Do you have a reference for that story? Where, when or which book? Thanks in advance.
                  I can't remember where I saw it, but it's the sort of thing that sticks in your mind..
                  It's called "black humour" and we Brits are very good at it, for example when I got a 3-month jail sentence my solicitors looked shocked, so to cheer them up I said-" It's okay, I'd got nothing planned for the next 3 months anyway".
                  And on the way to the jail the prison van broke down, so another prisoner called out to the driver "Let us out and we'll give you a push if you like", but he declined the offer..

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                    Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike -I like to think I'd have the same tough mindset of the Brit soldier in the Falklands War who saw his mate get blown up and killed on a motorbike after delivering the mail to the front line troops.
                    He said- "It could have been worse, he might have got blown up before he'd delivered it"

                    --------------------------------------------------------

                    I can't remember where I saw it, but it's the sort of thing that sticks in your mind..
                    It's called "black humour" and we Brits are very good at it, for example when I got a 3-month jail sentence my solicitors looked shocked, so to cheer them up I said-" It's okay, I'd got nothing planned for the next 3 months anyway".
                    And on the way to the jail the prison van broke down, so another prisoner called out to the driver "Let us out and we'll give you a push if you like", but he declined the offer..
                    What a surprise. Presumably made up by you then. A list of the British and attached to UK forces non-British dead and the circumstances of their deaths, knock yourself out and prove it.

                    http://www.war-memorial.net/Roll-of-...2-Deaths-4.248
                    Last edited by Sergio; 17 Nov 17, 11:07.
                    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                    G.B Shaw

                    "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                    Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sergio View Post
                      ..What a surprise. Presumably made up by you then..
                      Nah mate, we holy men don't do "made up"..
                      Jesus said- "Everyone on the side of truth listens to me” (John 18:37)

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                        Re 'guilt complex'- thanks guys, yes I suppose none of us know how we'll handle traumas, I like to think I'd have the same tough mindset of the Brit soldier in the Falklands War who saw his mate get blown up and killed on a motorbike after delivering the mail to the front line troops.
                        He said- "It could have been worse, he might have got blown up before he'd delivered it"
                        It's rather like the words put into Lt Bromhead's mouth in the film Zulu,(reminded by your avatar).
                        " I feel ashamed".
                        It's a very safe bet that he would never have said or thought it in reality. He had no reason to feel thus . Surely the script in the film reflected more modern attitudes to PTSD.
                        "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                        Samuel Johnson.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                          It's rather like the words put into Lt Bromhead's mouth in the film Zulu,(reminded by your avatar).
                          " I feel ashamed".
                          It's a very safe bet that he would never have said or thought it in reality. He had no reason to feel thus . Surely the script in the film reflected more modern attitudes to PTSD.
                          Yeah, older generations were a tougher breed..

                          "At 100 yards, bust their friggin asses, FIRE!"

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            PTSD is a major symptom of failure to properly prepare and train troops, whose primary objective is to kill the enemy.
                            Is it because now as kids and growing up we see very little human/animal suffering and death compared to early 20th century or earlier?

                            I mean grandma dies in hospital or nursing homes

                            Dad does not hunt or trap but works in an office

                            Mommy does not kill and skin chicken for dinner

                            has there been any studies that show if PTSD is more common in urban folks who had a sheltered childhood vs those that didnt

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                              One thing that's always puzzled me in military books is the fact that combat survivors often get a "guilt complex" that gives them bad dreams for years afterwards because they can't seem to handle the fact that they survived but their mates didn't.
                              Why they don't just think "I was simply lucky but they weren't", and move on with their lives?
                              SOme people are not as thick skinned as you ( I dont mean that in an offensive way )
                              I TOTALLY understand that feeling
                              if I'm not mistaken survivors of disasters famine etc have the same feelings too

                              the thought that they might have done something to save their buddies

                              its part of an altruistic feeling that is ingrained in our psyche

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                              • #60
                                Out of idle curiosity how many here have know or worked with more than one or two people suffering from PSTD?

                                Second: Anyone have the symptoms, either latent or presented? You can msg me privately about this.

                                Thanks

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