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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sergio View Post
    Getting excited by the mass murder of hundreds of civilians and the rapes of women and kids? Hard to know if you a troll, a bigoted moron or just historically ignorant. Sadly these are not exclusive on this forum. As Seb posted the helicopter crew were the heroes.
    Whose side you on mate? My Lai was a Cong village so Lt Calley and his men were doing their duty by clearing it out, and some civilians got caught in the crossfire as collateral damage.
    And if a few pigs and chickens got trashed too,so what, at least they were Cong pigs and chickens!
    Calley can join my computer wargaming squad any time he likes because he's a born winner, I drum it into my men to turn enemy villages to rubble with sustained tank and artillery fire before we go in, because the enemy pose no threat if they're mush..

    "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it"- Gen. Douglas MacArthur
    "Inflict the maximum amount of wound, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time"- Gen George Patton
    "Punch with your fist and not with your fingers spread " - Panzergeneral Heinz Guderian
    "I have a high art, I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me"-Archilocus (Greek mercenary) 650 BC-
    "We need to DESTROY, not attack, not damage, not surround. I want to DESTROY the Republican Guard"- Gen Norman Schwarzkopf
    "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is, the sooner it will be over"- Gen William Sherman

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
      ...how are our enemies holding up? They face a massive disadvantage in technological and material capabilities, they have to worry about drone strikes, and their medical support if they are hit is primitive at best, and they have no tour rotation. Yet they keep coming.
      Yeah, they seem to have the right tough mindset.
      Same with Nam, the little men just kept on a-coming-
      "You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours, but even at those odds, you will lose and I will win....
      Whoever should wish to seize Vietnam must kill us to the last man"- Ho Chi Minh


      By contrast, most US politicians and civilian liberals were gutless and let down the troops badly-
      "Washington locked me into a defensive strategy, thereby preventing me bringing the war to a swift conclusion"- Gen. Wm. Westmoreland

      Below: North Vietnamese veteran Nguyen Van Mai at a museum in Hanoi April 30, 2009 in front of a sculpture made from the wreckage of U.S. Air Force planes shot down-

      Comment


      • #33
        And we don't know how many of them are suffering from PTSD and unless we do this is a fruitless argument. It can make some men paranoid and suicidal which would match their style of warfare.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • #34
          If troops in any war (past or present) have got good strong leaders I'd think the chance of them getting PTSD is much less, because their leaders toughness will rub off on them-
          "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another" (Bible:Proverbs 27:17)

          One film that spring to mind on that theme is "Twelve O'Clock High" where the soft commander of a Bomber Group is transferred out because the mens morale is low, and replaced by iron man Gregory Peck who sets things straight, like here where he tells somebody-
          "You've got a yellow streak a mile wide!"

          YOUTUBE- https://youtu.be/LOGl_7a2nWU
          Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 12 Nov 17, 04:30.

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          • #35
            My first exposure to the psychological cost of war comes from observing WWII veterans. Those that saw action were somehow different from support troops. They seemed to me to slip easier into melancholy more readily than most people. Of course I'm no psychologist it's just my observation.

            I see the same tiredness in police officers. It isn't cynicism, although the less charitable often describe it as such. It is more a loss of faith in human nature. The realization that everyone has the capacity for senseless violence including themselves. There is a little Cain in every Abel.

            I have also seen plenty of PTSD in dogs. It manifests itself as a lack of trust. Those that have less faith in themselves, that are naturally timid can often devolve into fear biters which the inexperienced confuse with aggressiveness.

            If PTSD is worse in recent times I suspect it has to do with the cynicism that comes with the loss of respect for one's own culture. If Nietzsche was alive he would say that when God died so did faith in Western Civilization. While self criticism is healthy the unwarranted post modernist deconstruction of meaning combined with the Marxist hatred of liberal democracy is soul crushing. Especially when the educational system panders to bad philosophy and historical revisionism.
            We hunt the hunters

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
              Whose side you on mate? My Lai was a Cong village so Lt Calley and his men were doing their duty by clearing it out, and some civilians got caught in the crossfire as collateral damage.
              And if a few pigs and chickens got trashed too,so what, at least they were Cong pigs and chickens!
              Calley can join my computer wargaming squad any time he likes because he's a born winner, I drum it into my men to turn enemy villages to rubble with sustained tank and artillery fire before we go in, because the enemy pose no threat if they're mush..

              "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it"- Gen. Douglas MacArthur
              "Inflict the maximum amount of wound, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time"- Gen George Patton
              "Punch with your fist and not with your fingers spread " - Panzergeneral Heinz Guderian
              "I have a high art, I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me"-Archilocus (Greek mercenary) 650 BC-
              "We need to DESTROY, not attack, not damage, not surround. I want to DESTROY the Republican Guard"- Gen Norman Schwarzkopf
              "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is, the sooner it will be over"- Gen William Sherman
              RACISM, REVISIONISM & GENOCIDE/MASS MURDER
              Racist Remarks, Racial Slurs, Nazi Revisionism, purposeful Revisionist History contrary to known or certain facts, or any commentary calling for the indiscriminate mass murder or genocide of any group based on race, religion, nationality, sexual preference or political beliefs will not be tolerated on the Armchair General (ACG) Forums.

              Needless to say, these have no place at a serious historical forum, although we may allow them in certain circumstances as case studies of how history can be manipulated by ignorance.
              It is obvious what kind of poster you are but the **** you are posting is also against forum rules.
              "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
              G.B Shaw

              "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
              Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                I wonder if the trrops who are most prone to 'PTSD' are those without any spiritual side to their nature to act as extra "body armour"?
                That's very moving, but what is its relevance to the subject of PTSD?



                PTSD is real; however, its actual rate of occurrence is highly exaggerated.
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sergio View Post
                  It is obvious what kind of poster you are but the **** you are posting is also against forum rules.
                  I hope you'll join me in helping stamp out racism mate, it's everywhere we look..

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                    I hope you'll join me in helping stamp out racism mate, it's everywhere we look..

                    purposeful Revisionist History contrary to known or certain facts, or any commentary calling for the indiscriminate mass murder
                    More to the point. Poor effort on your part.
                    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                    G.B Shaw

                    "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                    Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      POS , try a little tenderness.
                      That rug really tied the room together

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        PTSD is a major symptom of failure to properly prepare and train troops, whose primary objective is to kill the enemy.
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          I'm not a big believer that most, or even a large number of veterans, have PTSD. I think it's become the "disability de jour" for getting benefits. First, less than 10% of veterans ever see actual combat. It has become something of a cottage industry to not only say you have it, but even to fake it. There's plenty of sites on the Internet that will coach you through getting the VA to certify you have PTSD and qualify you for a lifetime disability payment.
                          So, the vast majority of veterans in the military never experience anything service related that would cause them to suffer PTSD that was part of their duties. I've seen, or been involved in, in what in the civilian world would be called "industrial accidents." Shipboard fires? A number ranging from minor to pretty serious, including one that was a radcon (radiological) fire. People getting torn up on machinery, etc. More than I care to recall. I've seen auto accidents that are equally bad, or worse.
                          I was never in combat, not even close. But, I bet with some coaching I could claim PTSD today with the way the system is set up. Would I? No. Why should I cheat the system?
                          actually studies show you do not have to be in combat to develop PTSD.

                          another interesting stat was medical examiners who dealt with bodies on a consistent basis did better than those who did not when called up.

                          a few years back I posted a Literature review I did on the subject.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by craven View Post
                            actually studies show you do not have to be in combat to develop PTSD.

                            .
                            Which is why its called PTSD and not something like Battle Fatigue any more. It's stress that is the issue regardless of what causes the stress. A follow up longitudinal study of medical rescue workers from the Great East Japan Earthquake found that four years after the event 74% were showing some symptoms of PTSD even though most were continuing to function reasonably well.

                            I understand that there is a fear of long term emergence of PTSD amongst medical staff who worked through the recent African Ebola outbreaks
                            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                              Which is why its called PTSD and not something like Battle Fatigue any more. It's stress that is the issue regardless of what causes the stress. A follow up longitudinal study of medical rescue workers from the Great East Japan Earthquake found that four years after the event 74% were showing some symptoms of PTSD even though most were continuing to function reasonably well.

                              I understand that there is a fear of long term emergence of PTSD amongst medical staff who worked through the recent African Ebola outbreaks
                              I remember the key factor in PTSD and how bad it can be is depends on the support structure or lack there of the individual has and other stressors that come into play like money difficulties, work stress marital.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by craven View Post
                                I remember the key factor in PTSD and how bad it can be is depends on the support structure or lack there of the individual has and other stressors that come into play like money difficulties, work stress marital.
                                All of which can be precipitated by the PTSD itself thus creating a vicious circle. I remember reading a study on returning POWs from Burma (when I was at University an eon ago) and some of the wives and other family members who had to cope deserved a special medal - they got SFA support from the army.
                                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                                Comment

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