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  • Extended Tours

    Army officials announced yesterday that thousands of active-duty and reserve soldiers who are nearing the end of their volunteer service commitments could be forced to serve an entire tour overseas if their units are chosen for deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan.

    The order applies to all Army soldiers who are deployed in the future and means that many troops could face extended terms in the military after their formal contracts expire. The Army had previously issued such orders on a unit-by-unit basis, as troops deployed. Now, all soldiers are on notice that if their units are called into the fight, they will go -- and stay.

    Soldiers will be notified 90 days before their units are to deploy, and by policy, all soldiers must then serve with their units until 90 days after they return. If a soldier's scheduled service end date falls within that window, he or she will be forced to serve the entire tour.

    Army officials said the move promotes cohesion by preventing Army divisions from being depleted shortly before they go into battle. But military experts and lawmakers said the decision indicates that the Army is being stretched thin by multiple operations, with some calling the program a draft in disguise.

    Full story

    Clear as a summer's day in Iraq - the US military is very overextended.


    _______
    If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything.
    -Bill Lyon
    I hate it when I see one of those road signs that says "Draw Bridge Ahead" and I don't have a pencil.
    -Lou Chiafullo

  • #2
    Its not only the Army but the Corps as well. We are all over streched.

    Semper Fi

    Comment


    • #3
      Point of Order.

      What the Pentagon announced yesterday and has been much becryed and whined in the press was the implementation of stop-loss. Stop-less has been used a number of times since 1990 when I remember its first use. This is a measure that impacts units prior to deployment to lock the unit roster. This enables a unit to deploy with its leadership top to bottom intact from its pre-deployment trainup. It also avoids also the FNG (Fecking New Guy) Syndrome in units. It saves lifes.

      --------------------------------------------------
      Army changes Stop Loss/Stop Movement
      By Karla L. Gonzalez
      Army News Service
      June 03, 2004

      WASHINGTON -- Active-duty Soldiers nearing the end of their service contract may not be getting out of the Army as soon as they might have expected.

      Army officials announced June 1 the latest Active Army Stop Loss/Stop Movement Program for active Army units preparing for deployment overseas in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom. Policies in place for reserve-component Soldiers have not changed.

      The changes in the Active Army program synchronize the process of units being notified of deployments with the Stop Loss actions, according to Lt. Col. Franklin Childress, public affairs officer with the Army's G-1. The previous process required a separate action to request the initiation of Stop Loss after the unit received official deployment notification.

      The Active Army Stop Loss/Stop Movement program will be effective 90 days prior to the Earliest Arrival Date, or EAD, specified in the deployment order, according to Childress. Soldiers will remain affected by Stop Loss/Stop Movement under the program up to 90 days after they redeploy to their home station.

      The additional days following redeployment, according to Childress, are to take care of the Soldiers. The time will be used to allow for any medical or dental needs to be taken care of as well as any other out-processing that needs to be completed.

      "The focus is on Soldiers taking care of Soldiers," said Childress. Soldiers who have completed all of their out-processing needs can get approval from their command to be released in less than 90 days.

      The new program does allow for some separations of Soldiers. The following active-Army soldiers are normally not subject to Stop Loss:

      Soldiers eligible for mandatory retirement;

      Soldiers eligible for disability retirement, separation for physical disability or other physical conditions;

      Soldiers pending separation for the convenience of the government such as surviving sons and daughters, parenthood or pregnancy;

      Soldiers pending separation because of dependency or hardship;

      Soldiers whose quality of service warrants separation;

      Soldiers in violation of the Army's homosexual conduct policy;

      Soldiers pending separation who are conscientious objectors, and;

      Soldiers who do not meet military personnel security program standards.

      The focus of Army deployments is on trained and ready units, not individuals, Army personnel officials said. They explained that losses caused by separation, retirements and reassignments have the potential to adversely impact training, cohesion, and stability in deploying units.

      Without a Stop Loss/Stop Movement program, an Army divisional-sized unit may require the reassignment of more than 4,000 Soldiers from other units to achieve a complete reset of the division and ensure a deployable strength of 100 percent, officials said. They said this unmanaged turbulence would preclude the delivery to the warfight of units which have an enhanced combat effectiveness based on stability and having trained together for long periods of time.
      ----------------------------------------------
      I don't know how or if it really impacts the NG or Reserve if they have been called up. The frequency and types of call ups of both have concerned me for some time.

      I agree that our force structure is too small for its commitments right now. The shortage has been anywhere from two to five combat divisions along with a number of combat and fighter a/c and surface vessels. There is no quick fix for that unless an entire Reserve or NG division is called to AD. Then it would really be about a year before it could really be classified as combat ready. To stand up a new AD division would take two to three years in a five combat brigade configuration. Thats a very convservative estimate. I was on the Ranger Regt staff when we stood that unit and 3rd Ranger Bn up. It took well over a year to man, train, and eval 3rd Bat to combat ready standards. I can't see any unit taking any less time.

      The Donald maintains that we are in a manpower requirement 'spike' and additional troops are not needed. I believe an addition of two AD combat divisions for the Army and possibly one for the AD Marines would be unwarrented since the GWOT is more of a long term commitment than manpower spike.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RetPara
        The Donald maintains that we are in a manpower requirement 'spike' and additional troops are not needed. I believe an addition of two AD combat divisions for the Army and possibly one for the AD Marines would be unwarrented since the GWOT is more of a long term commitment than manpower spike.
        Doesn't a spike mean that it will soon go down? Far as I can see, doesn't look like we'll be pulling any number of troops from anywhere, anytime soon. So therefore, it can't be a spike. If its a long term committment, then wouldn't it be feasible to add more troops, for the future operations? They can't keep calling NG troops up, soon they'll have to be calling the same units again for year+ tours. One squadron of my local 165th AW has been called up three times since 9-11 (each time for 4-6 months). If we were in a full-blown, WWII situation I don't think the Guardsmen and Reservists would be complaining about being called up so often, but we're not, so we need to increase the AD force or risk loosing great numbers of NG and Reservists. And as far as Donald Rumsfeld, I have little confidence in him anymore (and it has nothing to do with that Abu Ghraib prison stuff either). Ask almost any active duty soldier (or Marine) and they'll tell you they need more folks in uniform. And we don't need a draft to accomplish it.
        "Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for"
        "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching"

        Comment


        • #5
          I can see a millitary draft coming in the upcoming years.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by foster
            I can see a millitary draft coming in the upcoming years.
            There's no chance of a draft in the foreseeable future.

            JS
            Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
            Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


            "Never pet a burning dog."

            RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by foster
              I can see a millitary draft coming in the upcoming years.
              Highly unlikely, Foster. The All-volunteer force has proven to be far-superior to conscripts - their motivation, espirit de corps and cohesion are superior. Rather than reinstating the draft, the armed services are requesting a rise in the manpower ceiling, and this will likely be approved - perhaps not in the numbers they request, but they will likely get an increase.

              The services are not overstretched as a whole, only in Iraq. It is only the resistance to send more troops into the Iraq theater taht has the current formations over-burdened. Sending perhaps an Armored Cav unit, for instance, would certainly alleviate a fair portion of the over-burdening.

              Urban combat is intense, difficult, inherently more hazardous than maneuver warfare - and so entails more casualties. Comparing it to Gulf War 1, or any similar action is invalid. Look to city battles in World War 2, or other similar campaigns - here will you see reasonable comparions. Pacification of an urban stronghold is slow and dirty, but will meet with success.
              Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
              (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Extended Tours

                Originally posted by Geeky Nerd .

                Full story

                Clear as a summer's day in Iraq - the US military is very overextended.


                _______
                If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything.
                -Bill Lyon [/B]
                _____________________________________

                You're definately a "glass is half empty" kind of guy, aren't you?:bang:
                Minister Of Propaganda For Sinister Inc.

                "Look! The enemy is inviting us to defeat them! We must oblige them!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by hogdriver
                  The services are not overstretched as a whole, only in Iraq. It is only the resistance to send more troops into the Iraq theater taht has the current formations over-burdened. Sending perhaps an Armored Cav unit, for instance, would certainly alleviate a fair portion of the over-burdening.
                  That's a pretty rare assessment from what I hear most of the time (and no, not just from the horrible evil liberal media). Besides, I thought we were horribly overstretched everywhere because of Clinton, or at least, that's what I always hear.
                  (Although Cheney did say before coming to office that any administration only has the previous administration's military to work with - so I must say, Clinton's military has done a fine job in Afghanistan and Iraq). :P

                  But on a less sarcastic note and more serious note: I thought there was a big deal about the fact that we were pulling troops from Asia (Korea) to send to Iraq because that's basically a "Holy Crap We Need Troops" move. And it seems to me that the reservist levels we have called up for such a long period are a bit of a sign of being overstretched some.
                  “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Re: Extended Tours

                    Originally posted by Stage
                    _____________________________________

                    You're definately a "glass is half empty" kind of guy, aren't you?:bang:

                    Or half full?



                    ______
                    I was always looking outside myself for strength and confidence, but it comes from within. It is there all the time.
                    -Anna Freud
                    I hate it when I see one of those road signs that says "Draw Bridge Ahead" and I don't have a pencil.
                    -Lou Chiafullo

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And my dumb friend just joined the Army national Guard as an Infantryman... Even when we get out of high school he is going to AIT and then switching to Active...
                      The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                      Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Extended Tours

                        Originally posted by Geeky Nerd
                        Army officials announced yesterday that thousands of active-duty and reserve soldiers who are nearing the end of their volunteer service commitments could be forced to serve an entire tour overseas if their units are chosen for deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan.

                        The order applies to all Army soldiers who are deployed in the future and means that many troops could face extended terms in the military after their formal contracts expire. The Army had previously issued such orders on a unit-by-unit basis, as troops deployed. Now, all soldiers are on notice that if their units are called into the fight, they will go -- and stay.

                        Soldiers will be notified 90 days before their units are to deploy, and by policy, all soldiers must then serve with their units until 90 days after they return. If a soldier's scheduled service end date falls within that window, he or she will be forced to serve the entire tour.

                        Army officials said the move promotes cohesion by preventing Army divisions from being depleted shortly before they go into battle. But military experts and lawmakers said the decision indicates that the Army is being stretched thin by multiple operations, with some calling the program a draft in disguise.

                        Full story

                        Clear as a summer's day in Iraq - the US military is very overextended.


                        _______
                        If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything.
                        -Bill Lyon
                        I'd like to find out who these military "experts" are - I expect they are anything but. Guardsmen and Reservists are well aware that they may be activated in time of need, and for them, or anyone else, to whine about it shows a distinct lack of professionalism, maturity and espirit de corps. If they are unhappy with the current situation, they may ask to be separated, their particular service may well oblige them. Otherwise, they need to suck it up and do what is expected of them.
                        Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                        (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re: Extended Tours

                          Originally posted by hogdriver
                          I'd like to find out who these military "experts" are - I expect they are anything but. Guardsmen and Reservists are well aware that they may be activated in time of need, and for them, or anyone else, to whine about it shows a distinct lack of professionalism, maturity and espirit de corps. If they are unhappy with the current situation, they may ask to be separated, their particular service may well oblige them. Otherwise, they need to suck it up and do what is expected of them.
                          Well you need to consider the idiots who think the Guards and Reserves never get deployed overseas!
                          The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                          Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Re: Re: Extended Tours

                            Originally posted by BarcelonaBlom
                            Well you need to consider the idiots who think the Guards and Reserves never get deployed overseas!
                            It seems that the whiny Reserve and Guard troops need to be reminded of the oath they took and, if they feel incapable of adhering to it, they should request separation, with the character of their service being decided upon by those who know of their service.
                            Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                            (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Extended Tours

                              Originally posted by hogdriver
                              It seems that the whiny Reserve and Guard troops need to be reminded of the oath they took and, if they feel incapable of adhering to it, they should request separation, with the character of their service being decided upon by those who know of their service.
                              I'm not sure where the "whiny Reserve and Guard troops" theme came from. There is no reference to it in the article, that I can see.

                              I've served with Active, Guard, and Reserve from all the services (except USMCR and Air National Guard) and have found whiners in all of them but by-and-large people here are getting on with business without more than usual soldier complaints.

                              JS
                              Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                              Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                              "Never pet a burning dog."

                              RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                              http://www.mormon.org
                              http://www.sca.org
                              http://www.scv.org/
                              http://www.scouting.org/

                              Comment

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