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  • Was it planned?

    Have been thinking about the course of events in Iraq and wondering about what has occurred any why?

    Is it possible that some shadowy figure(s) decided that, knowing that they could not meet the US forces in the open field, in a set piece battle, that they would bring them into Baghdad, and thence erupt into guerilla warfare and terrorist acts. Here, they would not have advantage so much as they would be able to use the urban setting to their advantage. The sniping, IEDs, truck bombs, suicide bombers, et al are precisely what the terrorists need. Many standing armies have been brought low by irregular warfare in urban areas.

    It is not outside the realm of possibility that this group may also have sacrificed Saddam Hussein to their ends. After all, what has he brought to the Iraqi people but heartache, death, destruction and ruination. The person who tipped off US forces may well have been among the forces seeking to gain advantage in this war, leading US forces to the pit where Hussein cowered.

    If this is the case, it brings clarity to the sequence of events we have observed since "the end of major combat". If in fact the form of combat in Iraq has been by their hand, then they have indeed succeeded on at least a base level to make their mark upon Iraq.
    Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
    (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

  • #2
    Don't Know

    I think we are fighting on many different fronts in Iraq.

    1. The Former Regime - Nothing like having everything then nothing to motivate you to blow up Americans. The former regime planned ahead. They have arms caches all over the country and some have not been found yet. Since they have nothing to lose, I don't think they will be stopping anytime soon.

    2. Al Queda - "Islamic governments have never and will never be established through peaceful solutions and cooperative councils. They are established as they always have been by pen and gun... by word and bullets... by tongue and teeth. In the name of Allah, the merciful and compassionate." With Saddam out of the way, Al Queda can get down to business in Iraq. Coming to a country near you in the Middle East, a new Islamic state.

    3. The Sunnis - have been beaten upon by Saddam for DECADES. You think they are going to risk this ever again?

    4. The Kurds - have been fairly quiet. I don't think you can assume that this will always be the case.

    I would definately say the Former Regime planned to make things difficult if they lost. Al Queda is just taking advantage of the chaos. The Sunnis want their time in the sun. The Kurds want out. We are slowly making more enemies.

    Planned, unplanned, spur of the moment, or well thought out, I don't think we face a single evil warlord pulling the strings from his secret base. I think we are just in the middle of a mess and every hand can turn against us.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by hogdriver
      Have been thinking about the course of events in Irar and wondering about what has occurred any why?

      Is it possible that some shadowy firgure(s) decided that, knowing that they could not meet the US forces in the open field, in a set piece battle, that they would bring them into Baghdad, and thence erupt into guerilla warfare and terroist acts. Here, they would not have advantage so much as they would be able to use the urban setting to their advantage. The sniping, IEDs, truck bombs, suicide bombers, et al are precisely what the terroists need. Many standing armies have been brought low by irregular warfare in urban areas.

      It is not outside the realm of possibility that this group may also have sacrificed Saddam Hussein to their ends. After all, what has he brought to the Iraqi people but heartache, death, destruction and ruination. The person who tipped off US forces may well have been among the forces seeking to gain advantage in this war, leading US forces to the pit where Hussein cowered.

      If this is the case, it brings clarity to the sequence of events we have observed since "the end of major combat". If in fact the form of combat in Iraq has been by their hand, then they have indeed succeeded on at least a base level to make their mark upon Iraq.
      I have often wondered if the whole thing was just a gigantic "trap" to kill Americans/British/whoever they could get their hands on. But then, I'm paranoid by nature.

      Dr. S.
      Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

      www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

      www.tabletown.co.uk

      Comment


      • #4
        I assumed this was the case before the war even started. Do you really think they figured they could beat US forces on the field?
        “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Read the Illuminati trilogy. Kinda fits with every thing you just said. Course it just fits it in a weirder way...

          Comment


          • #6
            Well see, I assumed the plan was to tie us down in guerrilla warfare minus any conspiracy theories... I just assumed they would plan to fight us that way as a part of a military strategy.
            “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes...it was all planned. And in much greater detail than any of you can imagine. In fact, it was the US Supreme Court that planned this, way back in 2000, when they chose Bush as the pResident of the US. They knew that his incompetent leadership would shine through in all times of crises, and that the immanentizing of the eschaton would result.

              They are so diabolically clever...
              I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey Hogdriver Man


                Wow you just now thinking maybe we got our modern conventional army of heavy infantry and heavy armor being confounded by a guerilla war with sneaky murderous and deadly tactics. Oh I forgot you still trying to talk all around the issue that this war may turn into something like that terrible word you do not want to hear: VIETNAM. Is this the best you can do is called it maybe initated by a sinister group of people unknown to us. Gee you are really struggling with your rationalization so as to avoid the V word.

                Oh do not get angry with me! I was just getting a little playful cracks at you. Seriously, we got a problem with the politicans getting our professional conventional army prehaps mired in a such situation where their are bleeding like a stuck hog while slapping back at the endless flow of **** ants with a sledge hammer. I agreed with your serious concerns expressed in your thread. What should me do?

                What wrong with enlisting all those thousands of Kurd in the North who strongly hate the Sunnis and Shitties. The Kurd are not jihist islamic nuts and they will fight if offered some serious automatony state rights. What is wrong with a American verison of the French Foreign Legion composed of foreign mercenaries and U.S. convicted felons of military background. All this would help form a quick force of light infantry with our armor to fight guerillas. Why waste our good quality elite troops fighting guerillas when others are available. We are short of troops anyway. What do you think Mr. Hogdriver? I already know it is bad public relations but do not they all hate us anyway. Are not they killing and multilating the corpses of our dead while dancing a cheerful victory dance.

                I base these suggestation upon my reading of Alexander the Great in his handling of the revolting conquered people in what is now northeastern Iran area. His heavy infanty and heavy calvary with Greek tactics were failing. He put together armies of light infantry and light calvary of mecenaries and other local people. They sucessfully subpressed the guerillas fighting with their tactics at least for a time.

                I really do hope this war is not to be a nation wide guerrilla war with years of involvement of our troops. I hope the revolts are local and eventually suppressed. However, had you heard about the details of what happen to the Brits in the 1920's with the almost same situation? They to were initially called liberators but they soon began combatants in a bloody guerilla war by these same ungratful people.

                ________________

                King Agis remarked in the 400's BC "the Spartans do not ask how many the enemy but where they are"

                In a battle King Agis was confronted with an army of superior number, he remarked "The man who wants to rule many men must fight many men".

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you start arming the Kurds then the Turks will get VERY upset and then you have NATO problems.

                  Dr. S.
                  Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

                  www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

                  www.tabletown.co.uk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey Doc


                    You absolutely right to bring up the issue of the Turks and their struggle againist the Kurds minority ethic group. No issue on arming the Kurds as they are all ready fully armed and have been for years. Perhaps you mean arming them with heavy armor. I think we should not trust them with that. Only use them as light infantry for guerilla warfare only maybe commanded by U.S. officers. The Turks were more concern about an independent Kurd nation being estalbished which should not be allowed. It should not take long to organize these Kurd/American assault teams. This should terrorize the Sunnis and Shitties and they may negoitate a settlement of some type to set up a secular representative government free of the jihists. Presently, it appears we are to have a government full of Shitties majority who heavily favoring jihist beliefs. We destroyed the Baath government, which was a secular non-jihist government, and if we now turn the nation over to a anti-westerner jihist government then we are a fool. When we leave the government should be secular representative and our ally. However, I realize this may be impossible dream but anything else I consider a grave foreign policy mistake. In last resort, we could return the middle and lower rank Baath party members back with a new constitution laws to keep the government secular and democracy. First you got to defeat the jihists and quickly.

                    _________________________

                    Spartan military commander Lysander known for his clever tricks to achieve success is reported to have said, "that fox-skin has to be stitched on wherever lion-skin wouldn't stretch".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      To Bo Archer

                      No, I didn't just figure on this but, unlike some, I investigate, analyze and formulate my views rather than simply spout off with the first reactionary drivel that pops into my head.

                      As for Vietnam, what do you know of it? How old were you during the course of the war? Were you even born then? In Vietnam we propped up a corrupt, immoral and incompetent regime and attempted to build a "Little America." In Iraq, we could not be farther from that. Your comments do reflect positively on you.

                      Again with the Kurds, if you had bothered to look up our policy vis-a-vis the Kurds, you would know that we promised Turkey that we would do nothing to encourage the Kurds to fight (presumably with intent to get a Kurdish state or at least a Kurdish Autonomous Region which may spill into Turkey.

                      Finally, as regards Alexander's campaigns 23 centuries ago, I see no relevance or correlation between his actions and what is happening today. Alexander was engaged on a brutal war of conquest whereas the Coalition is rebuilding the infrastructure, economy, government, oil industry, police and defense forces and educational system.
                      Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                      (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hogdriver Dude!


                        I am pleased to hear from you. I was afraid you were giving me the cold shoulder. But like the good moderator that you are you came thru like a sport.

                        You first paragraph was a hoot especially the part about reactionary drivel. But did you really spent much time with responses? Am crushed you did not like my Alexander the Great narration with hopes you would find it's historical lessons significant. I admit it may appear lame to a modern man. The point was that our present tactics are not good fighting light infantry guerillas who may have endless supply of men and weapons. We should use a ready source of cheap abundant light infantry found locally and finish their light infantry off. Why can you not see the logic of that?

                        Wow Vietnam is such a sore spot with many. It's been over for thirty years or so and thousands of books and articles have been printed. Don't you think some historical lessons can be derived from that experience if some would simply look? Please do not misunderstand me I am not for the cut and run policy in Iraq simple because it may turn into a full blown guerilla war. Like it or not we are holding a very dangerous Wolf by both ears with our hands and we can not turn it loose just yet. Thats not my original remark by the way. I desire a victorious end result here despite my disgust in how we got in Iraq.

                        The Kurd issue I think is a vital issue as they could be simply enlisted to fight an insurgency within their own nation. Remember they are a member of the nation Iraq and it's not the business of the Turks to deny the rights of Iraq people (inculding the Kurds) to fight for their rights to have a democractic secular nation. Again the Turks are only worried about a Kurd independent state which should not be allowed. What happen to the enemy of my enemy is my friend notion?

                        What highly concerns me is the mindset of the US administration and the military which seems frozen in the cold war mentality of fighting a conventional war against a conventional Soviet type enemy that except for a few nations no longer really exist any more. We are really the only super power in the world. It's now mostly a world of intense guerilla religious fundementalist jihadist warfare for which we have only made feeable preparations to date. Most were all asleep at the wheel until 911. Overseer and Gepard postings were excellent.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Posted by Bo Archer
                          You first paragraph was a hoot especially the part about reactionary drivel. But did you really spent much time with responses? Am crushed you did not like my Alexander the Great narration with hopes you would find it's historical lessons significant. I admit it may appear lame to a modern man. The point was that our present tactics are not good fighting light infantry guerillas who may have endless supply of men and weapons. We should use a ready source of cheap abundant light infantry found locally and finish their light infantry off. Why can you not see the logic of that?
                          That is called "cannon fodder" and is not something that a democratic government directs a professional army to do. If we were to do such a thing, why not simply conscript from our prisons? Or, why not recruit from the inner city areas of our largest cities? Maybe even we could could press gang the illegal aliens we have in custody? That is the sort of thing that the Nazis, Soviets, or Saddam did.

                          For assymmetric warfare, as low intensity warfare as now called, this is something that all nations so involved seem to need to learn over and over. It is only for the Pentagon and CENTCOM commanders to read any of the publications addressing LIW/AW. The terrorists/extermists/jihaddis, et al have some sort of 'beachhead' because the battle are being fought on their terms. Our forces must draw them out, make them fight on the streets and in the field, rather than in buidlings, and their success will evaporate.

                          The Kurd issue I think is a vital issue as they could be simply enlisted to fight an insurgency within their own nation. Remember they are a member of the nation Iraq and it's not the business of the Turks to deny the rights of Iraq people (inculding the Kurds) to fight for their rights to have a democractic secular nation. Again the Turks are only worried about a Kurd independent state which should not be allowed. What happen to the enemy of my enemy is my friend notion?
                          Firstly the Kurds - there are significant Kurdish communities in Iraq, Iran and Turkey. Though not as vocal as Turkey, the Iranians have also let it be known that they are quite wary of an autnonomous Kurdish state in northern Iraq. Even the Kurdish members of the Iraqi Governing Council are well aware that hopes for such a region is dead in the water. Hence our agreement with the Trurks, who fear an upsurge in terror attacks in southern Turkey if the terrorists have a sympathetic operating base in northern Iraq. It is a question of working with our NATO ally or with an unstable, fractious and frequently violent ethnic group.

                          What happen to the enemy of my enemy is my friend notion?

                          This is Cold War thinking and is exceptionally dangerous thinking. Especially in consideration that the bulk of our enemies are terrorist groups - who are their enemies. Though it would never be publicly stated as such, the Russians are our enemies, solely because they are the only ones, by virtue of their nuclear weapons, capable of challenging us. Are enemies are clearly known, our allies rather less so.
                          Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                          (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hogdriver

                            Ok so he are hinting that you do not like my American Foreign Legion plan either. You are a hard man Hogdriver. My feelings are hurt again. Not really. Hey what your evaluation of the effectiveness of French Foreign Legion in North Africa against the jihadist hordes. It made for great movies and outsanding legends of military glory. Seriously, if this war against assumed international jihadist movements evolves into a world wide conflagration of mini wars across the earth why would you think we do not need a great amount of "cannon fodder". Did not the U.S. Army enroll the African/American lowly slave off the plantation directly into the infantry. Was that taking advantage of the downtrodden? These blacks fougth bravely and covered their selves with glory and honor which impressed those who cared to notice. I like your recruit suggestions except the impressment gang remark was a bit extreme. The downtrodden and volunteers (convicts, aliens, homeless, foreigners ) will flood the ranks without force as there is glory and honor to be had plus all the benefits which should be available as with the regular army. The U.S. has the distinction of the world leading incarceration of manpower into our prison systems on mostly drug crimes in our make believe war on drugs. It cost around 30,000.00 dollars a year a person in prison. The Great Right Wing of Amerian has made law and order a sacred cow at a heavy cost.


                            On the issue of the nature of the enemy and the Kurds. Do you really expect the Iraq enemy to cooperate with the plan to draw them out and fight on our terms in open terrain and not their terms? Like the Vietnamese in 1956 did with the French army, they will likely reach a political settlement with us just to get us to leave and then their bloody ethic/religious war will start. No Saddam to control them. The Kurds will very likely face another disaster and what a shame to waste such a valuable potential ally (remember the Meo people of Vietnam). Who really cares what the Iranians think as the religious fundementalism jihadist movement begin in their Revolution in Tehran with overthrow of Shan. They are the real problem not the Russians.

                            After reading your last posting, I now see what I suspected all along why you and others have been struggling (really like we all are) with your own demons in trying to understand this mess. Is it that you and unfortunately much of our military/political elites are still stuck in the cold war mentality and the disease of communist phobia? Communism is past history. Do you really think the Russians are our enemies just because of the communist past and that they got nuclear missles that may challedge us some day? Are the Kurds to be abandoned and not used as allies because many have a socialist/marxist idealogy that offenses you old cold warriors? Was Saddam's government made a target of removal because of it's old Stalinist state model it was build upon? Is that why it and the Kurds were not even considered as a potential allis against international jihadist movement? I really hope that an international war with fundemental jihadist warriors is not very extensive as it appears because our military and political elites are not fully alerted to the real problem nor do they care to as their thinking does not go beyond Moscow 1917. That explains why you did not like my Alexander the Great narration. Just kidding. The enemy of my enemy notion is a lot older than the Cold War.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bo Archer
                              Hogdriver

                              Ok so he are hinting that you do not like my American Foreign Legion plan either. You are a hard man Hogdriver. My feelings are hurt again. Not really. Hey what your evaluation of the effectiveness of French Foreign Legion in North Africa against the jihadist hordes. It made for great movies and outsanding legends of military glory. Seriously, if this war against assumed international jihadist movements evolves into a world wide conflagration of mini wars across the earth why would you think we do not need a great amount of "cannon fodder". Did not the U.S. Army enroll the African/American lowly slave off the plantation directly into the infantry. Was that taking advantage of the downtrodden? These blacks fougth bravely and covered their selves with glory and honor which impressed those who cared to notice. I like your recruit suggestions except the impressment gang remark was a bit extreme. The downtrodden and volunteers (convicts, aliens, homeless, foreigners ) will flood the ranks without force as there is glory and honor to be had plus all the benefits which should be available as with the regular army. The U.S. has the distinction of the world leading incarceration of manpower into our prison systems on mostly drug crimes in our make believe war on drugs. It cost around 30,000.00 dollars a year a person in prison. The Great Right Wing of Amerian has made law and order a sacred cow at a heavy cost.


                              On the issue of the nature of the enemy and the Kurds. Do you really expect the Iraq enemy to cooperate with the plan to draw them out and fight on our terms in open terrain and not their terms? Like the Vietnamese in 1956 did with the French army, they will likely reach a political settlement with us just to get us to leave and then their bloody ethic/religious war will start. No Saddam to control them. The Kurds will very likely face another disaster and what a shame to waste such a valuable potential ally (remember the Meo people of Vietnam). Who really cares what the Iranians think as the religious fundementalism jihadist movement begin in their Revolution in Tehran with overthrow of Shan. They are the real problem not the Russians.

                              After reading your last posting, I now see what I suspected all along why you and others have been struggling (really like we all are) with your own demons in trying to understand this mess. Is it that you and unfortunately much of our military/political elites are still stuck in the cold war mentality and the disease of communist phobia? Communism is past history. Do you really think the Russians are our enemies just because of the communist past and that they got nuclear missles that may challedge us some day? Are the Kurds to be abandoned and not used as allies because many have a socialist/marxist idealogy that offenses you old cold warriors? Was Saddam's government made a target of removal because of it's old Stalinist state model it was build upon? Is that why it and the Kurds were not even considered as a potential allis against international jihadist movement? I really hope that an international war with fundemental jihadist warriors is not very extensive as it appears because our military and political elites are not fully alerted to the real problem nor do they care to as their thinking does not go beyond Moscow 1917. That explains why you did not like my Alexander the Great narration. Just kidding. The enemy of my enemy notion is a lot older than the Cold War.
                              In all candor, and not intending offense, reading this post was rather like reading assmbly instructions for a bike, or some such thing. However, I will attempt to respond.

                              1) The Foreign Legion, in my opinion, is directly akin to a state terror organization, and is worthy of no further regard.

                              2) Yes, the US did recruit southern blacks intot he army, and yes, it probably was becuase they figured that a steady, paying job, however dangerous, would have great appeal for former slaves.

                              3) Your comment of the prison issue is quite rambling and semi-coherent, and not entirely certain what I should be replying to, so I will simply declare so - the vast majority of people are in prison because they belong there. The acted in a sociopathic manner (at best) and unleashed their predations on society, they now pay the price. I believe that prisoners should be required to pay for their incarceration. They are imprisoned by their own hand, and so society should be burdened with the expense of incarceration. Every prisoner would be required to work, or be in their cell 23 hours a day, let out only for one hour of walking (alone) in a courtyard, or other isolated area. Those who work will be created according to the work they do (e.g. unskilled labor at minimum wage, and upwards). Only basic human services, high school completion, and tutoring (if needed) will be free. Any recreation, hobbies, or other lesiure activities will be charged on a fee for service basis. Upon release a court order will be issued for the balance of the cost of their incarceration, and they will agree to make regular reasonable payments (indexed against their income). Should they be on parole and fail to make a payment, they will be in violation of their parole, and will return to prison. If they were released and either quit a job without cause, or miss a payment, they will be in contempt of court, and will be jailed.

                              Beyond this, I find it quite difficult to follow your line of reasoning, and so will not proceed further.
                              Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                              (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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