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  • #61
    Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

    so does a CBG. no big deck goes any where with out an attack sub following it around.
    Again, that is why I picked the amphibious group in relation to this thread and the poll. Yes, the CBG comes with a sub, no the CBG does not have an amphibious assault capability.....

    Before you go there, yes, I know the CBG has air that the AG doesn't but if you look at what the Be its did with their Barriers and consider that the AG now has F-35s.......the AG has a very capable air coverage for the assault forces. Whether you want to admit it or not, the AG is there to put the L/Cpl or Spc on the ground.

    On a side note, my daughter's DDG was attached to a MEU for about 2 montha last year.
    "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Nichols View Post

      Again, that is why I picked the amphibious group in relation to this thread and the poll. Yes, the CBG comes with a sub, no the CBG does not have an amphibious assault capability.....

      Before you go there, yes, I know the CBG has air that the AG doesn't but if you look at what the Be its did with their Barriers and consider that the AG now has F-35s.......the AG has a very capable air coverage for the assault forces. Whether you want to admit it or not, the AG is there to put the L/Cpl or Spc on the ground.

      On a side note, my daughter's DDG was attached to a MEU for about 2 montha last year.
      i mean VTOL F/35s have either limited range, or limited weapons load out. they're only really good for CAP from an LHA/D and to get any decent number of them for a decent sortie rate you have dedicate pretty much the entire air wing to being F35s which will hinder your capabilities as an amphibious warfare vessel

      depending on how much you want to cut your fixed wing aircraft numbers on a CVN you could load up with a bunch of ospreys and have some amphibious capability. obviously not nearly as effective in putting marines ashore as an LHD, but you could still do it.
      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
      A man dies and leaves his name,
      A teacher dies and teaches death.
      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

        i mean VTOL F/35s have either limited range, or limited weapons load out. they're only really good for CAP from an LHA/D and to get any decent number of them for a decent sortie rate you have dedicate pretty much the entire air wing to being F35s which will hinder your capabilities as an amphibious warfare vessel
        I not sure where you are getting you information from but I recommend that you read this article:

        https://news.usni.org/2019/02/27/fir...us-ready-group
        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

          they are a corps within the navy.
          Marine officers come out of the Naval Academy, there is no such thing as a marine medic, they are part of the DoN, if that's not being part of the navy, i don't know what is. they are their own distinct fighting force from the navy sure, but they are part of the navy
          Dont be intentionally obtuse. The Department of the Navy (the secretary-level civilian organization) has two (and potentially three) military services- the USN, the USMC, and potentially the USCG. That doesn't make the USMC part of the USN, the separate and co-equal military service, which is what is usually understood when someone says "the Navy", not the Department.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by 82redleg View Post

            Dont be intentionally obtuse. The Department of the Navy (the secretary-level civilian organization) has two (and potentially three) military services- the USN, the USMC, and potentially the USCG. That doesn't make the USMC part of the USN, the separate and co-equal military service, which is what is usually understood when someone says "the Navy", not the Department.
            they're a separate fighting force sure, but they are far from their own service or equal to the army or air force or even the USCG since all three have their own dedicated academies...and the marines do not. they have the...wait for it...NAVAL ACADEMY! the only reason people like you are saying this is because the USMC has focused so much on pretending to be the army for the last 2 decades or so.

            also the USCG is never a part of the navy, in wartime they become subordinate to the navy. the parts of the DoN would be the USN, USMC, and USMSLC
            the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

            A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
            A man dies and leaves his name,
            A teacher dies and teaches death.
            Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Nichols View Post

              I not sure where you are getting you information from but I recommend that you read this article:

              https://news.usni.org/2019/02/27/fir...us-ready-group
              vertical take off with a full weapons load burns fuel, some where on here a while back we had this discussion, so you can burn a lot of fuel during take off limiting loiter time/range, or you can take off with a decreased weapons load to save weight but increase range/loiter time.

              per wiki a wasp class LHD carries 6 harriers or now 6 F35s (same for the tarawas). that's basically enough to provide a CAP. if you increase that number you reduce the number of helos or osprey you can carry that are also used to transport troops ashore thus degrading the amphibs capability to operate in it's intended role.
              and considering the america class is only slightly longer and slightly wider, i imagine they under standard load will only carry 6 F35s. even when being designated as an 'F35 carrier' as is being experimented right now they only put about a dozen aircraft onboard...thats when they're basically turning them into escort/light carriers...

              edit
              wasp had 'at least ten' F35s so 10-12 is what they're calling a light carrier with these amphibs...not much of a sortie rate with 12 aircraft aboard
              with up to 20 being the goal...again still not much of a sortie rate when you remember about half will likely be set a side for day ops, and half for night ops, and likely one or two down for repairs/maintenance...
              Last edited by General_Jacke; 21 Jul 19, 20:26.
              the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

              A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
              A man dies and leaves his name,
              A teacher dies and teaches death.
              Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
                they're a separate fighting force sure, but they are far from their own service or equal to the army or air force or even the USCG since all three have their own dedicated academies...and the marines do not. they have the...wait for it...NAVAL ACADEMY!
                I'm not sure where you are getting this information from but I recommend that you read this:

                https://www.marines.com/becoming-a-marine/officer.html

                BTW, my daughter didn't go to the Naval Academy.....she went to GWU.....does that mean she isn't a LtJG on her DDG?

                "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

                  vertical take off with a full weapons load burns fuel, some where on here a while back we had this discussion, so you can burn a lot of fuel during take off limiting loiter time/range, or you can take off with a decreased weapons load to save weight but increase range/loiter time.

                  per wiki a wasp class LHD carries 6 harriers or now 6 F35s. that's basically enough to provide a CAP. if you increase that number you reduce the number of helos or osprey you can carry that are also used to transport troops ashore thus degrading the amphibs capability to operate in it's intended role.
                  Did you read the article? They did combat deployments from the Essex to Afghanistan and Iraq.

                  This isn't hearsay, it actually happened.

                  You reference wiki, I give you the historical facts from USNI.

                  BTW, the F-35 does not vertically take off.
                  "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                    Did you read the article? They did combat deployments from the Essex to Afghanistan and Iraq.

                    This isn't hearsay, it actually happened.

                    You reference wiki, I give you the historical facts from USNI.

                    BTW, the F-35 does not vertically take off.
                    the F35B does vertically take off.

                    i never said they didn't deploy...there are 3 variants of the F35, one for the air force, one for the navy, and one for the marines. the marine variant the B is a VSTOL airplane.
                    your own article has a picture of it landing or taking off vertically, and then even says that it's short take off plane (VSTOL)

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW28Mb1YvwY
                    the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                    A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                    A man dies and leaves his name,
                    A teacher dies and teaches death.
                    Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                      I'm not sure where you are getting this information from but I recommend that you read this:

                      https://www.marines.com/becoming-a-marine/officer.html

                      BTW, my daughter didn't go to the Naval Academy.....she went to GWU.....does that mean she isn't a LtJG on her DDG?
                      cool? i never said anyone had to go to a military academy. i just pointed out that there are only 3 branches and they each have their own academy.

                      what's with life long civilians always trying to validate their opinions or thoughts based on their relatives' service?
                      Last edited by General_Jacke; 21 Jul 19, 20:41.
                      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                      A man dies and leaves his name,
                      A teacher dies and teaches death.
                      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
                        the F35B does vertically take off.

                        i never said they didn't deploy...there are 3 variants of the F35, one for the air force, one for the navy, and one for the marines. the marine variant the B is a VSTOL airplane.
                        your own article has a picture of it landing or taking off vertically, and then even says that it's short take off plane (VSTOL)
                        The F-35B can but that is not how they are employed. You are trying to rewrite history to fit your conception of reality.

                        You said it can only be used as CAP, well in the real world it dropped ordinance in Afghanistan from the Essex.

                        Where is a picture of it taking off vertically from the Essex in that article?
                        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                          The F-35B can but that is not how they are employed. You are trying to rewrite history to fit your conception of reality.

                          You said it can only be used as CAP, well in the real world it dropped ordinance in Afghanistan from the Essex.

                          Where is a picture of it taking off vertically from the Essex in that article?
                          might be landing vertically, but it's literally the first picture in the article.

                          you can't operate fixed winged aircraft from an LHD with out them operating in a VSTOL manner. otherwise you'd need catapults and arresting wires like on a CV which they don't have...you literally don't have any clue what you're talking about
                          the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                          A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                          A man dies and leaves his name,
                          A teacher dies and teaches death.
                          Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                            The F-35B can but that is not how they are employed. You are trying to rewrite history to fit your conception of reality.

                            You said it can only be used as CAP, well in the real world it dropped ordinance in Afghanistan from the Essex.

                            Where is a picture of it taking off vertically from the Essex in that article?
                            here is a video, the B has to use some amount of vertical thrust to get them airborne from an LHD/A as shown in this video with the upper air intake open and the engine angled down to create that verticle thrust, which burns through fuel. not as much as a pure vertical landing but a lot more than the C variant does from a carrier


                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbrmnsAJUWg
                            the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                            A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                            A man dies and leaves his name,
                            A teacher dies and teaches death.
                            Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              per google the C variant has 301 mile longer range than the B variant and the A variant has 343 more mile range than the B variant.

                              https://www.google.com/search?client...ge+of+the+F35A

                              https://www.google.com/search?client...ge+of+the+F35B

                              https://www.google.com/search?client...ge+of+the+F35C


                              so lets see here...nothing i've said has been inaccurate, the F35B found on amphibs in very limited numbers is a significant decrease in capability from the C found on CATOBAR carriers
                              the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                              A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                              A man dies and leaves his name,
                              A teacher dies and teaches death.
                              Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
                                what's with life long civilians always trying to validate their opinions or thoughts based on their relatives' service?
                                Life long civilians? I probably have more sea time than you and I was never stationed on a ship as ship's company.
                                "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                                Comment

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