Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What military force types are most important today?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Nichols
    replied
    Anyways, I'm pretty sure John didn't mean to make this into an interservice rivalry thread. It was supposed to be capabilities thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nichols
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post

    Google is your friend. According to wiki---
    1st--1,5,7 Pendleton
    2nd--2,6,8 Lejeune
    3rd--3,4 Okinawa
    That divisions they fall under is accurate....but, the 7th Marines are at 29 Palms & the 3rd Marines are in Hawaii.

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    What Infantry Battalions are assigned to each Marine Division? There should be nine per division.

    Pruitt
    Google is your friend. According to wiki---
    1st--1,5,7 Pendleton
    2nd--2,6,8 Lejeune
    3rd--3,4 Okinawa

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

    i'm quite familiar with the secondary and tertiary effects of natural disasters, and guess who provides security ashore for deployed ships that don't have marine contingents...oh ya the sailors...particularly the SRF-A and VBSS trained sailors. i never saw marines do any sort of security on either of my deployments, it was always sailors at the gates, at the ECPs and standing top side security watches. then there's the fact that if you don't think thats good enough level of training, RIVRON guys, can be used IA sailors aren't hard to find since GWOT kicked off and guess what a lot of them did...various security duties ashore in iraq and afghanistan...

    if there weren't marines they'd just use them to put the army ashore...after all there weren't any marines at normandy...but marines are still part of the navy in the end...so it doesn't really matter
    When I said "ashore", I didn't mean on the pier.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    What Infantry Battalions are assigned to each Marine Division? There should be nine per division.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • 82redleg
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    Keep in mind that the Marine Corps has only two full size divisions. The third is a slightly oversized Expeditionary Brigade. Congress mandated the Marines keep three Divisions, but did not specify they all be full strength.

    Pruitt
    ThevUSMC has 24 infantry battalions, three (or one regiment) short of what would be required for three full strength divisions. Divisions are ground units, that task organize into the Ground Combat Elements (GCE) of Marine Air Ground Task Forces (MAGTFs).

    The MEB is a MAGTF, composed of a command element (CE), Logistics Combat Element (LCE), Aviation Combat Element (ACE) in addition to the GCE, which is normally a Regimental Landing Team or Combat Team, a ground force task organized around an infantry regiment.

    You're comparing apples and pizza by saying a division is an oversized MEB.

    What the USMC has done is create separate headquarters for employment and prep/training/admin. Each battalion belongs to a regiment, but chops to a MEU for employment, so the USMC ends up far more COL/O6 commands per maneuver battalion than the Army. What amazes me is not that they have this system (which actually works fairly well) but that they have this system but have convinced everyone that they are lean and efficient. 7 (I think that's still right) MEUs plus 8 regiments (15 total) for 24 battalions far exceeds the Army's ration, even if you include the 10x additional maneuver-ish battalions (2x tank, 2x assault amphib, 3x LAR and 3x recon) when the Army has 95 infantry/armor battalions and 33 cavalry squadrons among its33 BCTs.

    15/34= 0.44 headquarters/maneuver battalion, while the Army has 33/128 = 0.25 headquarters/maneuver battalion. Which is "leaner"?

    Leave a comment:


  • General_Jacke
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    I'm not talking about providing security onboard the ships. I'm talking about providing security onshore. If you've ever read anything about natural disasters and the like, civil authority breaks down and there is looting and other crime. If your military is strong enough, you don't have to fight many battles. Just the threat of them is enough to keep the peace. How many naval wars did the RN fight between Trafalgar and World War 1? There's your answer.

    PS--How many amphibious ships would the navy have if there weren't any marines? ZERO.
    i'm quite familiar with the secondary and tertiary effects of natural disasters, and guess who provides security ashore for deployed ships that don't have marine contingents...oh ya the sailors...particularly the SRF-A and VBSS trained sailors. i never saw marines do any sort of security on either of my deployments, it was always sailors at the gates, at the ECPs and standing top side security watches. then there's the fact that if you don't think thats good enough level of training, RIVRON guys, can be used IA sailors aren't hard to find since GWOT kicked off and guess what a lot of them did...various security duties ashore in iraq and afghanistan...

    if there weren't marines they'd just use them to put the army ashore...after all there weren't any marines at normandy...but marines are still part of the navy in the end...so it doesn't really matter

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    I'm not talking about providing security onboard the ships. I'm talking about providing security onshore. If you've ever read anything about natural disasters and the like, civil authority breaks down and there is looting and other crime. If your military is strong enough, you don't have to fight many battles. Just the threat of them is enough to keep the peace. How many naval wars did the RN fight between Trafalgar and World War 1? There's your answer.

    PS--How many amphibious ships would the navy have if there weren't any marines? ZERO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    Keep in mind that the Marine Corps has only two full size divisions. The third is a slightly oversized Expeditionary Brigade. Congress mandated the Marines keep three Divisions, but did not specify they all be full strength.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • General_Jacke
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    That's a "we don't have anything more important to do" role. Humanitarian aid is not a primary task of the military. You'd still want an MEU onboard for transportation, extra men, keeping the peace, etc.
    ship's company can provide security since they already do that any way, transportation is a pretty easy thing to fill...navy helicopters, navy can get cars, trucks, and vans pretty easily. i just countered your claim that with out a MEU an amphib was just an empty ship.

    when exactly was the last time an amphib took part in humanitarian aid/disaster relief vs when was the last time an amphib put marines ashore against a hostile beach head?

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

    i mean amphibs without a MEU onboard still have a lot of utility as humanitarian aid ships, carrying UUV, USVs, and SEALs or SWCC...
    That's a "we don't have anything more important to do" role. Humanitarian aid is not a primary task of the military. You'd still want an MEU onboard for transportation, extra men, keeping the peace, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • General_Jacke
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Read the poll question again. He separated submarines, destroyers, and frigates from amphibious groups.

    The CATF is Navy, the CLF can be Navy or the ground force commander. The LF is the ground force commander. This chain of command transfers during an amphibious operation. The CATF & CLF do not command the LF. This is doctrinal, check out JP 3-02.

    The SecNav falls under the SecDef. Going by what you are saying the Navy falls under the DOD....that pretty much negates your point.
    you're correct they do all fall under the SECDEF and DoD, but units that were specifically part of the DoN were listed, which means navy...they are specifically navy.

    Leave a comment:


  • General_Jacke
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    I meant it as an ARG. Amphibious transport ships are just empty ships without an MEU. Other countries don't have MEUs as such, but it's not much different than a RM Commando or other marine units, just "heavier".
    i mean amphibs without a MEU onboard still have a lot of utility as humanitarian aid ships, carrying UUV, USVs, and SEALs or SWCC...

    and other countries may not call them MEUs but they do have marine units that are intended to go onboard amphibs and deploy against foreign shores...

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by 82redleg View Post

    The USMC gets three (short) divisions out of an endstrength of ~186k, while the Army gets 10 divisions out of an endstrength of ~470k, and the USMC (and the USAF and USN) depend on the Army for a whole host of infrastructure and support activities.
    The Marine total also includes their own CAS.

    Leave a comment:


  • 82redleg
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    I remember posting years ago that I thought that an MEU, between its power and mobility, was probably the most efficient military force of its size, by far.
    Only if you're not going to undertake any operations longer than ~72 hours- then it runs out of endurance. And you have to be within range, which has extended considerably via Osprey, but is still limited- you can't deploy a MEU from CONUS to anywhere.

    Efficient in military operations is a chimera anyway- you can find it, but it doesn't do you much good. The nay thing that really counts is effectiveness, which is generally inefficient.

    The USMC gets three (short) divisions out of an endstrength of ~186k, while the Army gets 10 divisions out of an endstrength of ~470k, and the USMC (and the USAF and USN) depend on the Army for a whole host of infrastructure and support activities.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Topics

Collapse

Working...
X