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What military force types are most important today?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 82redleg View Post

    The USMC gets three (short) divisions out of an endstrength of ~186k, while the Army gets 10 divisions out of an endstrength of ~470k, and the USMC (and the USAF and USN) depend on the Army for a whole host of infrastructure and support activities.
    The Marine total also includes their own CAS.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by johns624 View Post
      I meant it as an ARG. Amphibious transport ships are just empty ships without an MEU. Other countries don't have MEUs as such, but it's not much different than a RM Commando or other marine units, just "heavier".
      i mean amphibs without a MEU onboard still have a lot of utility as humanitarian aid ships, carrying UUV, USVs, and SEALs or SWCC...

      and other countries may not call them MEUs but they do have marine units that are intended to go onboard amphibs and deploy against foreign shores...
      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
      A man dies and leaves his name,
      A teacher dies and teaches death.
      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Nichols View Post

        Read the poll question again. He separated submarines, destroyers, and frigates from amphibious groups.

        The CATF is Navy, the CLF can be Navy or the ground force commander. The LF is the ground force commander. This chain of command transfers during an amphibious operation. The CATF & CLF do not command the LF. This is doctrinal, check out JP 3-02.

        The SecNav falls under the SecDef. Going by what you are saying the Navy falls under the DOD....that pretty much negates your point.
        you're correct they do all fall under the SECDEF and DoD, but units that were specifically part of the DoN were listed, which means navy...they are specifically navy.
        the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

        A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
        A man dies and leaves his name,
        A teacher dies and teaches death.
        Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

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        • #34
          Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

          i mean amphibs without a MEU onboard still have a lot of utility as humanitarian aid ships, carrying UUV, USVs, and SEALs or SWCC...
          That's a "we don't have anything more important to do" role. Humanitarian aid is not a primary task of the military. You'd still want an MEU onboard for transportation, extra men, keeping the peace, etc.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by johns624 View Post
            That's a "we don't have anything more important to do" role. Humanitarian aid is not a primary task of the military. You'd still want an MEU onboard for transportation, extra men, keeping the peace, etc.
            ship's company can provide security since they already do that any way, transportation is a pretty easy thing to fill...navy helicopters, navy can get cars, trucks, and vans pretty easily. i just countered your claim that with out a MEU an amphib was just an empty ship.

            when exactly was the last time an amphib took part in humanitarian aid/disaster relief vs when was the last time an amphib put marines ashore against a hostile beach head?
            the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

            A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
            A man dies and leaves his name,
            A teacher dies and teaches death.
            Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

            Comment


            • #36
              Keep in mind that the Marine Corps has only two full size divisions. The third is a slightly oversized Expeditionary Brigade. Congress mandated the Marines keep three Divisions, but did not specify they all be full strength.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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              • #37
                I'm not talking about providing security onboard the ships. I'm talking about providing security onshore. If you've ever read anything about natural disasters and the like, civil authority breaks down and there is looting and other crime. If your military is strong enough, you don't have to fight many battles. Just the threat of them is enough to keep the peace. How many naval wars did the RN fight between Trafalgar and World War 1? There's your answer.

                PS--How many amphibious ships would the navy have if there weren't any marines? ZERO.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                  I'm not talking about providing security onboard the ships. I'm talking about providing security onshore. If you've ever read anything about natural disasters and the like, civil authority breaks down and there is looting and other crime. If your military is strong enough, you don't have to fight many battles. Just the threat of them is enough to keep the peace. How many naval wars did the RN fight between Trafalgar and World War 1? There's your answer.

                  PS--How many amphibious ships would the navy have if there weren't any marines? ZERO.
                  i'm quite familiar with the secondary and tertiary effects of natural disasters, and guess who provides security ashore for deployed ships that don't have marine contingents...oh ya the sailors...particularly the SRF-A and VBSS trained sailors. i never saw marines do any sort of security on either of my deployments, it was always sailors at the gates, at the ECPs and standing top side security watches. then there's the fact that if you don't think thats good enough level of training, RIVRON guys, can be used IA sailors aren't hard to find since GWOT kicked off and guess what a lot of them did...various security duties ashore in iraq and afghanistan...

                  if there weren't marines they'd just use them to put the army ashore...after all there weren't any marines at normandy...but marines are still part of the navy in the end...so it doesn't really matter
                  the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                  A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                  A man dies and leaves his name,
                  A teacher dies and teaches death.
                  Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    Keep in mind that the Marine Corps has only two full size divisions. The third is a slightly oversized Expeditionary Brigade. Congress mandated the Marines keep three Divisions, but did not specify they all be full strength.

                    Pruitt
                    ThevUSMC has 24 infantry battalions, three (or one regiment) short of what would be required for three full strength divisions. Divisions are ground units, that task organize into the Ground Combat Elements (GCE) of Marine Air Ground Task Forces (MAGTFs).

                    The MEB is a MAGTF, composed of a command element (CE), Logistics Combat Element (LCE), Aviation Combat Element (ACE) in addition to the GCE, which is normally a Regimental Landing Team or Combat Team, a ground force task organized around an infantry regiment.

                    You're comparing apples and pizza by saying a division is an oversized MEB.

                    What the USMC has done is create separate headquarters for employment and prep/training/admin. Each battalion belongs to a regiment, but chops to a MEU for employment, so the USMC ends up far more COL/O6 commands per maneuver battalion than the Army. What amazes me is not that they have this system (which actually works fairly well) but that they have this system but have convinced everyone that they are lean and efficient. 7 (I think that's still right) MEUs plus 8 regiments (15 total) for 24 battalions far exceeds the Army's ration, even if you include the 10x additional maneuver-ish battalions (2x tank, 2x assault amphib, 3x LAR and 3x recon) when the Army has 95 infantry/armor battalions and 33 cavalry squadrons among its33 BCTs.

                    15/34= 0.44 headquarters/maneuver battalion, while the Army has 33/128 = 0.25 headquarters/maneuver battalion. Which is "leaner"?

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                    • #40
                      What Infantry Battalions are assigned to each Marine Division? There should be nine per division.

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

                        i'm quite familiar with the secondary and tertiary effects of natural disasters, and guess who provides security ashore for deployed ships that don't have marine contingents...oh ya the sailors...particularly the SRF-A and VBSS trained sailors. i never saw marines do any sort of security on either of my deployments, it was always sailors at the gates, at the ECPs and standing top side security watches. then there's the fact that if you don't think thats good enough level of training, RIVRON guys, can be used IA sailors aren't hard to find since GWOT kicked off and guess what a lot of them did...various security duties ashore in iraq and afghanistan...

                        if there weren't marines they'd just use them to put the army ashore...after all there weren't any marines at normandy...but marines are still part of the navy in the end...so it doesn't really matter
                        When I said "ashore", I didn't mean on the pier.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                          What Infantry Battalions are assigned to each Marine Division? There should be nine per division.

                          Pruitt
                          Google is your friend. According to wiki---
                          1st--1,5,7 Pendleton
                          2nd--2,6,8 Lejeune
                          3rd--3,4 Okinawa

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by johns624 View Post

                            Google is your friend. According to wiki---
                            1st--1,5,7 Pendleton
                            2nd--2,6,8 Lejeune
                            3rd--3,4 Okinawa
                            That divisions they fall under is accurate....but, the 7th Marines are at 29 Palms & the 3rd Marines are in Hawaii.
                            "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                            • #44
                              Anyways, I'm pretty sure John didn't mean to make this into an interservice rivalry thread. It was supposed to be capabilities thread.
                              "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by johns624 View Post

                                Google is your friend. According to wiki---
                                1st--1,5,7 Pendleton
                                2nd--2,6,8 Lejeune
                                3rd--3,4 Okinawa
                                3rd Marine Regiment is assigned to 3rd MARDIV but based in Hawaii.

                                Because of their dual system of Headquarters, the USMC ends up double-counting battalions, because at any given point, at least four of those battalions are committed to MEUs, and thus unavailable to their assigned regiment/division.

                                If you look at the OOB for ODS and OIF 1, you can see the effect:
                                ODS (I omitted non-infantry battalions)
                                *I MEF
                                **2nd MARDIV
                                ***6th MAR: 2/2, 1/6, 3/6
                                ***8th MAR: 2/4, 1/8, 3/23
                                **1st MARDIV
                                ***1st MAR: 1/1, 3/9
                                ***3rd MAR: 1/3, 2/3, 3/3
                                ***4th MAR: 2/7, 3/7
                                ***7th MAR: 1/5, 1/7

                                ​​​​​​​There were some Marine units afloat, too, I'm not sure of their composition- it may have been just the HQs without infantry battalions.

                                OIF 1:
                                * I MEF
                                ** MEF HQ Group
                                ***11th MEU: 2/6
                                ***15th MEU: 2/1
                                ***24th MEU: 2/2
                                **1st MARDIV
                                ***1st MAR: 3/1, 1/4, 2/23
                                ***5th MAR: 1/5, 2/5, 3/5
                                ***7th MAR: 1/7, 3/7, 3/4
                                **2nd MEB
                                ​​​​​​​***2nd MAR: 1/2, 3/2, 2/8

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