Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Last battles commanded by royalty or nobility

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    As a snotty in a battleship he might have been in danger of being killed but was unlikely to be taken prisoner an important distinction in the minds of the relevant authorities when it came to military service for the heir and the spare in time of war. As either French or Haig said to the then PoW "I'm not concerned about the chance of you being killed Sire but it would be very embarrassing if you were captured". Having a PoW become a POW was a no no and he was kept doing staff work. The future George IV ended the war in the RAF and whilst he was allowed to undergo flying training (in those days quite high risk) and gain his wings he was also kept on staff work.
    Prince Andrew's role in the Falklands also put him at risk of being killed but capture was unlikely. This was not the case with Prince Harry in Afghanistan which is why the powers that be got so twitchy.
    George VI was never Prince of Wales, his elder brother the later Edward VIII was. (George iv died long before the first plane...). The PoW, did however serve in France but as you say wasn’t allowed anywhere near where he risked capture.
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
      I think you are off beam here. In 1940 Hitler invited the ex Kaiser to return from exile in the Netherlands and offered him honour and respect in Germany. Wilhelm declined, not because he disagreed with Hitler's general policies, but because he thought that he was a frightful common oik. This was the view of many of Germany's aristocrats. The top Nazis on the other hand were often keen to suck up to the aristocracy. Ribbentrop perhaps being the worst - he thought that he was accepted by them socially when in fact it was his wallet that was accepted by some of the more impecunious of them in Germany and Britain. Hess thought that he would be welcomed with open arms by the British aristocracy when he flew to Britain, largely because of briefings by Ribbentrop
      I'm sure that some of the old aristocrats viewed Hitler and other top NSDAP leaders to be uppity plebs. Likewise, I have no doubt that there were genuine star-f:censoreded:ckers among NSDAP's top echelon. What I'm arguing is that according to NSDAP ideology, there was no place for junkers in the Third Reich's top political leadership. They could be ornamental, maybe lend some veneer of legitimacy and continuity to the NSDAP government, but they had no place in the coucils of leadership, and certainly their interests as a class had no bearing on NSDAP's policies.

      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
      Hitler's decree should be viewed from a populist perspective. Hitler was acutely aware of the danger of upsetting his base. If the death of royals was upsetting popular sentiment then he would seek to avoid the death of royals - simple.
      Another of Hitler's possible motives for barring aristocrats from military service, one that is frankly more obvious than all the others: when Lt Prince Wilhelm was KIA, the outpouring of mourning likely was viewed by Hitler as a warning, that many Germans might still view the Hohenzollern's as Germany's legitimate leaders. Hitler acted as he did in order to head off a perceived threat to his leadership. That Lt's funeral was only six years after the Night of the Long Knives, so I don't think it a stretch to say that Hitler was very conscious of any possible threat to his leadership, no matter remote its chances for success, or how amenable to Hitler's leadership the figures in question may have appeared. Few things pi$$ off tyrants than a perceived threat to their leadership.
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Surrey View Post

        George VI was never Prince of Wales, his elder brother the later Edward VIII was. (George iv died long before the first plane...). The PoW, did however serve in France but as you say wasn’t allowed anywhere near where he risked capture.
        Actually George IV, when Prince Regent, fanticised that he was present at Waterloo and, moreover, had led a cavalry charge. When seeking verification from the Duke of Wellington the Duke replied, " I have often heard your Majesty say so ".
        THe Dutch Prince of Orange was present at Waterloo, however.
        THe last British King to led a British Army in the field was King George II in 1743
        "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
        Samuel Johnson.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

          I'm sure that some of the old aristocrats viewed Hitler and other top NSDAP leaders to be uppity plebs. Likewise, I have no doubt that there were genuine star-f:censoreded:ckers among NSDAP's top echelon. What I'm arguing is that according to NSDAP ideology, there was no place for junkers in the Third Reich's top political leadership. They could be ornamental, maybe lend some veneer of legitimacy and continuity to the NSDAP government, but they had no place in the coucils of leadership, and certainly their interests as a class had no bearing on NSDAP's policies.



          Another of Hitler's possible motives for barring aristocrats from military service, one that is frankly more obvious than all the others: when Lt Prince Wilhelm was KIA, the outpouring of mourning likely was viewed by Hitler as a warning, that many Germans might still view the Hohenzollern's as Germany's legitimate leaders. Hitler acted as he did in order to head off a perceived threat to his leadership. That Lt's funeral was only six years after the Night of the Long Knives, so I don't think it a stretch to say that Hitler was very conscious of any possible threat to his leadership, no matter remote its chances for success, or how amenable to Hitler's leadership the figures in question may have appeared. Few things pi$$ off tyrants than a perceived threat to their leadership.
          Out of the huge archive of collected and translated (and fortunately later digitised) material on Nazi party policy collected and prepared by British and American prosecutors in 1945/6 (and available in the Library of Congress) there are only two references to aristocracy both of which refer to building a new aristocracy out of the Hitler youth. There is however significant evidence of Himmler's efforts to attract support from the German aristocracy ( particularly for the SS) see Lisa Pine Hitler's 'National Community': Society and Culture in Nazi Germany pages 40 - 41, not always successfully for the reasons I've already indicated.

          Do you have sources in support of your assertions?
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #20
            [QUOTE=MarkV;n5105182]

            The German Crown Prince commanded an army in WW1. Opinions differ widely about his capability. Hindenburg made sure that he had a very capable chef of staff. Little Willy as the Crown Prince was dubbed by the British press was the butt of many Allied cartoons etc.

            The last British Royal to command a significant force in the field was the Duke of York who led an unsuccessful British Expeditionary Force in the Revolutionary Wars hence the nursery rhyme The Grand Old Duke of York. Wellington, who was a junior officer in it, said "one learnt what not to do which is always useful". The DoY became the effective CiC of the British Army - proving to be a far better administrator than a fighting general but was forced to resign over a scandal regarding his mistress. William IV was a Royal Naval Officer during the Napoleonic War and I think commanded a ship at some point. (As of course has the current PoW who once commanded a minesweeper)
            [/QUOTE
            IIRC The sane younger brother of Krazy Wilhelmn commanded a German vessel in Ww1.

            Also Hrh Prince Phillipp at a very young age commanded a Royal Greek vessel made out of boxwood to a rondevous with HMS Calypso in , 1921 or 1922' I believe.... The Duke Of Edinburgh's first command at sea.....

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...e_of_Edinburgh
            Last edited by marktwain; 28 Mar 19, 12:49.
            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post

              Out of the huge archive of collected and translated (and fortunately later digitised) material on Nazi party policy collected and prepared by British and American prosecutors in 1945/6 (and available in the Library of Congress) there are only two references to aristocracy both of which refer to building a new aristocracy out of the Hitler youth. There is however significant evidence of Himmler's efforts to attract support from the German aristocracy ( particularly for the SS) see Lisa Pine Hitler's 'National Community': Society and Culture in Nazi Germany pages 40 - 41, not always successfully for the reasons I've already indicated.

              Do you have sources in support of your assertions?
              Forgive my brevity as I am on the road, but this source

              https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...s/NaziNobleman

              while far from perfect, gets the general point across: while both the nobility and the Nazis sought to "use" the other, there remained a certain antipathy between the two camps, and the distrust remained until the bitter end. Certainly the Nazis did not seek to annihilate the nobility as a class a la the Bolsheviks, but the Nazis did envision supplanting the nobility as Germany's natural leaders. Make no mistake, Nazism was a populist ideology, and as such, aristocracy would have been viewed dimly. And it can't be denied that Hitler viewed any focus of loyalty and possible node of political power outside NSDAP and his own person with genuine hostility. Within the confines of the Third Reich, there could only be one boss, and Der Fuhrer would brook no competition.
              I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

              Comment

              Latest Topics

              Collapse

              Working...
              X