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  • National Guard al-Qaeda spy

    Just when you think you've seen it all. Supposedly, he converted to Islam some time ago, though that has not been confirmed. I've not heard of any statement from him, and officially a formal charge has not been determined yet. So what do you think the penalty should be, if it is proven that he did in fact try to provide sensitive operational information to an al-Qaeda representative? Possible charges are espionage and/or aiding a terrorist organization. My vote is for execution. We have let far too many persons convicted of espionage or similar offenses off the hook - life in prison is too good for them. Just one sniper with a Barrett Light 50 rifle, quick and clean.
    Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
    (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

  • #2
    Well the last Islamic soldier was the one from the 101st and he blew himself and three other soldiers up with a fragmentation grenade... I truely think if theyre Islamic and theyre going to do something like that while in service to the country they should be given the firing squad.

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    • #3
      Should the penalty match the seriousness of the information that was passed, or should the punishment be harsh simply because of the intent? Comparing the National Guard guy to the idiot that fragged his peers is not apples to apples as one (obviously) resulted in death, whereas the Guard guy attempted to pass information he downloaded from the internet. To make this matter even more comical, he attempted to contact Al-Quaida through an internet chat room. The first case, in my opinion, is a clear-cut death penalty case while the second should only be many years, not life, behind bars for the intent he displayed.

      On the other hand, I agree with the counter-arguement some may make that setting an example on the first case will save lives down the road by discouraging any repeat offenses. I would hate to be a statistic in Iraq simply because a soldier with a chip on his shoulder gave away my route of march while on patrol....so throwing the book at the Guard guy would not cause me to lose any sleep.

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      • #4
        Treason has always been a serious crime.

        If it can be proved that by his actions a life was lost, execute him. If not the following is my recommendation for this deluded NG boy.

        First: A blanket party given by the members of his unit. He needs to be reminded that the men and women he "served" with could easily have been victims of al-Qaeda. He needs to "feel" the pain.

        Second: Make him walk to New York City and see for himself the results of an al-Qaeda mission. Allow people to "gawk" and throw rotten veggies for humiliation.

        Third: Bread and Water for the duration of his life in prison.

        Fourth: Send him to Guantanamo Bay.

        Fifth: Strip his citizenship.

        I know its a kind fantasy to think this way. But i wanted to share with you'all.
        Only Tearful, Animal Man Through the Nature of his Being is Destined to
        a Life of Warfare...

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        • #5
          I think you're being easy on him, Scout. I would relish getting my hands on him.
          Stay Alert, Stay Alive!

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          • #6
            ARNG spy

            First, you have espionage - collecting information about his unit's equipment, capabilities, methods, etc. and acting with intent; an important concept, he was not some misguided patsy, he knew that impact of his actions. Next, conspiracy to commit murder, the murder of his fellow soldiers. Finally, conspiracy to commit terrorist acts. By his statement of intent to a person he believed to be a member of al-Qaeda, he impeached himself on all three charges and thus should be found guilty of all. I rather like the idea of allowing his fellow soldiers the duty of choosing his punishment
            Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
            (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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            • #7
              I AM NOT DEFENDING THE GUY, but, he is charged (among other things) with collecting information on capabilities and weaknesses/vulnerabilities of the M-1A1 tank in order to disseminate it to the enemy (Al Qaeda or their sympathizers). Most of the nice Army technical and tactical manuals have the address on the back where you can write in requesting a copy of the manual under the Freedom of Information Act. The bookstore at an off-post museum I recently visited has all sorts of manuals for sale as well as CD-ROMs containing weapons sytems tech manuals and tactical manuals. Don't want to travel there? They're conveniently available on their website, no questions asked. There is a used bookstore where I live that always has relatively current field manuals for sale.

              The idiot is charged with attempting to give away info that could be readily obtained through quite legal means.

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              • #8
                That's a fact to a certain point. What's not printed in any FM or TM is the information that requires an upper level security clearance to obtain.

                I was a MANPADS crewmember for about 10 years; that's a Stinger gunner for the un-military. Now, you can look up Stinger and find a ton of information in just about any medium, be it on the Web, in your local library, or at any capability exercise at your local military post. What you will not find are the facts for which one must have at least a Secret clearance to know. To this day, I can tell you the info that has been released as Classified (for appeasement), and what is the truth (Secret). The same goes for every other high-tech piece of military equipment there is.

                When I became a fully-trained military historian/journalist/photographer, I had to be upgraded to a Top Secret clearance level, and it was then that I began to find out things that I thought were fact at the Secret level just weren't so, or were not the entire facts.

                I also spent two years working in the civilian media, and I'll tell you this: FOIA don't mean s#*t when it comes to military information.
                Stay Alert, Stay Alive!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jim H. Moreno
                  That's a fact to a certain point. What's not printed in any FM or TM is the information that requires an upper level security clearance to obtain.

                  I was a MANPADS crewmember for about 10 years; that's a Stinger gunner for the un-military. Now, you can look up Stinger and find a ton of information in just about any medium, be it on the Web, in your local library, or at any capability exercise at your local military post. What you will not find are the facts for which one must have at least a Secret clearance to know. To this day, I can tell you the info that has been released as Classified (for appeasement), and what is the truth (Secret). The same goes for every other high-tech piece of military equipment there is.

                  When I became a fully-trained military historian/journalist/photographer, I had to be upgraded to a Top Secret clearance level, and it was then that I began to find out things that I thought were fact at the Secret level just weren't so, or were not the entire facts.

                  I also spent two years working in the civilian media, and I'll tell you this: FOIA don't mean s#*t when it comes to military information.

                  Dead on, Jim. The general information contained in any FM is just that, general information. Detailed operational parameters, known weaknesses and limitations, observed failures and shortfalls,combat oservations and such, these are not included in materials for public consumption.

                  I remember during Soviet operations in Afghanistan, we received several brief about the performance of the Stinger, any anomalies, failures and/or malfunctions. These observations were a great help for us in modifying doctrine, tactics and training.
                  Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                  (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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                  • #10
                    I understand and agree with your points. The AQ and their Iraqi allies probably have enough after action report tactics info from their roadside ambush successes with RPGs and IEDs against U.S vehicles in Iraq that their need for such material would be moot. I am sure that the AQ did the same in Afghanistan after Operation Anaconda.

                    I fully understand that the gee whiz info is not available and kept away from general consumption. If the maxim is to "know your enemy", planning your options based upon his tendencies and doing a threat matrix on his likely courses of action, then one's prep can be gleaned from available info.

                    As a former battalion S-2, I have experience dealing with classified info and clearances. I just found it disconcerting in January to go into a museum open to the civilian public and see a "Global War on Terrorism" display complete with two (inert) expedient explosive charges set up, an explanation of how they are best used and emplaced and a board beside them explaining the step by step method of instruction of how to set them up. They were both things I knew as an engineer how to construct but I took photos of the "how to" anyway. It just seemed irresponsible as a little too much info.

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                    • #11
                      I realize that some may think Im being simplistic but intent alone should be enough to fry this lowlife. Both him and the fragger from the 101st.

                      Reminds me of an article I read about a decade back-Anyone remember an Islamic deserter in Kosovo? U.S. units were supposed to be on the lookout for him but I never heard anything more on it.
                      Delegate, MN GOP.

                      PATRIA SI, COMUNISMO NO

                      http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/p...?id=1156276727

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                      • #12
                        Some have different treason definitions what it means "...giving aid and comfort". If it doesn't meet that definition, U.S. Code Title 18 Chapter 37, Espionage and Censorship, Section 793, "Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information" has applicable portions in paragraphs (a.) through (e.) There's always the UCMJ's Article 104, Aiding the Enemy, that can apply.

                        It's not just about the info classified Secret or higher. AQ and their sleeper cells will look for ANY usable intel. U.S. soldiers get annual security classes and still information security sucks. The best classes I took as an S-2 taught me the best way to protect my unit, info and equipment was to evaluate things from the Threat's perspective, looking for weaknesses. The AQ will take the path of least resistance in their intel gathering efforts. We shouldn't make things easy for them by giving away usable info.

                        That is why I was so upset when I saw the display I mentioned in my previous post. I understand the training committee who set up the display at the on-post museum was just trying to do a little bragging, showing their neat knowledge. Call me too cautious but I think it was thoughtlessly irresponsible, during Threat Condition Orange (during my early January visit) for them to show the bill of materials involved (most readily available) and the step-by-step procedure to make and employ for max effect two different expedient explosive devices.

                        As my fiancee' said, "The only thing they didn't provide was the address to pilfer the C4, det cord, time fuze and blasting caps from." (From my days in those S-2 courses, the ATF stats on stolen explosives shows it must not too difficult to procure.) Secret info or above: no. Useful, usable intel to any domestic terrorist asset visiting the post: ABSOLUTELY! The post is home to lots of "high speed, low drag" assets and an obvious HVT to AQ intel gathering assets. So the good O5's and above there can think they are safeguarding their info well, but they gave away usable intel, spoonfeeding and idiot-proofing it as a freebie for all to use. Having been stationed there, I expected better from those folks.

                        Since it is a small museum that rotates its' displays, I hope that it has been taken off display.

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