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  • Korea and China, before, during and after the War

    As a small nation living to the northeast of China for thousands of years, Korea had a very tricky and complex history.

    The first account of organized tribes of Koreans that I read in Chinese official history books was around 1100 B.C. --- when Zhou Dynasty defeated its previous governor Shang Dynasty, the King of Zhou sent the sons of the former King of Shang to a place called "Dong Yi"to rule the local people there. This area is later recognized as Korea.

    From then on, Korea, sometimes as part of China, sometimes as a rebel against the central power in China, sometimes as a friendly foreign nation, sometimes as minor kingdom under China's protection, sometimes as a serious enemy of China ...., etc etc.. had a very complex relation with China.

    When western power came to colonize the land of far east, Korea was a country under Qing Dynasty's "protection" ---- who could not even protect itself. Japan soon rose to a major Asian industry power and invaded Korea in 1890's. Qing Dynasty "honored" its promise to "protect" korea by sending its army and navy to confront Japan ---- just to be fatally defeated in 1894. Since then, Korea became part of Japan's colony along with a large part of northeast provinces of China --- later known as Manchuria.
    Attn to ALL my opponents:

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  • #2
    This situation basically stayed unchecked until the end of WWII. When the Imperial army of Japan dissolved in this region, there was a brief "vacuum of power" --- but soon both the "communists" and the west were seeking domination on this land. In China, it evolved into the 3-year-long civil war, ended with total communist's victory. The remanents of "capitalists" KMT army retreated to Taiwan and gained a safe haven by its absolute superior air force and navy till today.

    At the same time, Soviet Union advanced its trivial victory over Kuantong army into Korea. Yet fearing to irritate the US too much, the Red army stopped its advance volunterily before taking the whole penisula. The US on the other hand was totally unprepared and was ready to give up the whole region to the SU. On receiving the surprise "gift" from Stalin that their army stopped on their own, Pentagon immediately responsed with the "38 parallel" line suggestion to separate Korea into two parts: the north controled by SU and the South under the "protection" of the US.

    Seeing the Chinese communist victory, KIM IL CHENG, the leader of the communist faction in North Korea grew ambitious and could not stay satisfied with his share.
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    • #3
      Without notifying his Chinese "ally", Kim directly negotiated with Stalin in Moscow that Soviet would permit an all-out assault of North Korea to the South ---- to kick the "capitalists" out of the land.

      At this time, Kim saw no need of Chinese involvement: the majority of his NKPA (north korea's people's army) are veterans of Chinese civil war and are equipped with powerful Soviet weapons (including a considerable number of T34/85 and some JSII), while his opponent Rhee of the South only had a pathetic ill-trained, under-equipped army under the name of ROK. The US presence in S. Korea was minimum. Gen. MacArthur was probably enjoying too much his sushi meals and beautiful Japanese waitress in Tokyo to pay any attention to the cold stinky mountains over the strait.

      The summer campaign then began. It was a disaster for the ROK army and people, as well as the few US troops deployed there as "protectors". It was a shock not only to the US, the west, but also the Chinese communist party. CCP was nothing short from angry about such a major military operation without even a previous notification.

      The reason for Kim to do so was farely simply and was later proved again after the war. He hated Chinese.
      Attn to ALL my opponents:

      If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

      Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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      • #4
        It is not too hard to imagine why Kim had such mentality. As a matter of fact, for many Korean, either South or North today, a generic "fear" and "resentment" of China and Japan (the two big neighbors) is not uncommon. Maybe for most western people, it is easier to understand their hatred against Japan because of WWII. But think about the long history between China and Korea, and the much longer period that China had dominated the area, it is not difficult to see why.

        That could also explain why Kim later in the summer of 1950 refused any warning and suggestion from CCP's generals, including the possible landing at Inchon. Only after he was crushed by MacArthur's powerful surprise counterattack there and nearly eliminiated in the end, he seriously seeked Chinese help.

        However China had been considering sending armies into Korea long before that ----- probably as soon as the US marine landed and counterattacked. For China, Korea is a crucial buffer area to provide protection in depth for her northeast heavy industry bases. Without a safe "communist" Korea, or in other words, with a "capitalists-occupied" north korea, the whole northeast land borders as well as coast areas all the way to Shangdong province would be under direct threat of the 7th fleet of the US which would then be conveniently based in Korea.

        In order to protect the border and coastline, PLA would have to deploy over 2 million troops along the line. Yet still the power plants and railroad still would not have any sure protection since China had no air force and little air defense ability. (only very few Soviet AAA guns.)

        At the same time, Taiwan still had over 2.2 million KMT veterans with American equipments and as Jiangjie Shi vowed, he would "counterattack" mainland whenever possible. Thus, PLA would have to fight a two front war and facing US intervention directly from two sides. That was nearly impossible for PLA to accomplish, even with Soviet help. And besides, even if it could be done, the cost would be extremely high both in terms of manpower and material.
        Attn to ALL my opponents:

        If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

        Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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        • #5
          Thanks ER,

          You mentioned a link earlier, and you said you have some disaggrement with. Which are these? E.g. I noticed you mentioned N.Korea started the war, in the website they said S.Korea started. One change in the facts can annulate the whole website, so can you help me to find the mistakes?

          (as your sub in the tourney, I will be slow in my turns...)

          Laszlo
          a brain cell

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
            Thanks ER,

            You mentioned a link earlier, and you said you have some disaggrement with. Which are these? E.g. I noticed you mentioned N.Korea started the war, in the website they said S.Korea started. One change in the facts can annulate the whole website, so can you help me to find the mistakes?

            (as your sub in the tourney, I will be slow in my turns...)

            Laszlo
            LoL ... good luck, my dear sub

            but I check the link again, I failed to find out where it said it was the South invaded North ... if it did, that is a terrible mistake. It was absolutely the North invaded South. (probably you mistook the sentence there "China decided to intervene when the ROK units crossed the 38 parallel" as it was saying the South invaded first? ---- that is totally different. ROK units crossed 38 parallel after the North was already summarily beaten after Inchon landing. It was then China started to prepare for intervention.)

            I will probably need to take more time to read that FAQ again before I can sum up what I differ with it. I just had the impression when I read it, I disagree with quite a few points.

            But now let me first continue with my main topic ...
            Attn to ALL my opponents:

            If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

            Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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            • #7
              After fierce debate inside the highest power cirlce of CCP, most leaders agreed upon immediate response. However, the #1 candidate for the cmdr position, Lin Biao, did not concur. Mao then had to summon Peng Dehuai from northwest and rushed him into organizing an expenditure force in a very short time.

              Fortunately Peng is a brilliant general as well as most of the PLA units were very high quality veterans from the Civil War. Although many of them were either retired or sent into local reserve forces, it was not too difficult to re-assemble them into fighting sequence.

              Under the name of PVA (people's volunteers' army) (to avoid formally declare of war directly on the US), the first batch of major Chinese army entered Korea in Oct. 1950.

              NKPA at this time was mostly scattered or destroyed by UN troops. For a not-very-short-period, PVA entered a totally unknown world.
              Attn to ALL my opponents:

              If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

              Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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              • #8
                The years after Chinese entry would be the main topic of this section, the details of combats are not the focus of this particular thread.

                In a gross picture, in the following years till the end of the War, N.Korea and China had their closest relation --- with no surprise. With Soviet equipment, China helped to train the NKPA and to the end of the War, NKPA rose again as a considerable military power. However, during most part of the War, they were still in the process of "reborn" ---- their combat ability was probably higher than their south counterpart, yet, they were not able to fight in the same standard as PVA. The relation between China and Korea(N) at this time, actually was reflected more between the Chinese soldiers and N.Korean civilians who helped each other selflessly and passionately. It was not uncommon that some wounded Chinese soldiers were not only saved by Koreans volunteerily, but also protected by them, sometimes in price of their own lives when the area became occupied by the UN troops --- esp. ROK units. A side product of this phenomenon was that many wounded PVA soldiers later got married with Korean locals esp. in the later part of the War. However the cooperation and communication between the two armies (PVA and NKPA) were at best limited. As a matter of fact, these two armies were never under the same command. When Peng first met with Kim, he proposed an "allied HQ" to control the communist military forces in the peninsula, but Kim firmly refused ---- he did not want any CHinese control in his "bodyguards" --- the NKPA.
                Attn to ALL my opponents:

                If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

                Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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                • #9
                  In addition, NKPA and PVA had very different believes and policy and discipline.

                  Since the early "First Revolution War" in China (in 1920 ~ 1930's), PLA (then known as Red Army) had a very strict discipline to treat POWs humanly and as kind as possible (since PLA constantly had extremely difficulty in their own supplies, it is impossible to match the living conditions of the POWs to their western standard.). This is also admitted and proved by almost all American authors writting about Korean war. In fact, they particularly appreciated the case when PVA soldiers left heavily wounded UN soldiers on UN advance/retreat routes(to be picked up by their comrades) after some urgent first aid ---- because the Chinese knew that while they had no way to save those people's lives, the US had the technology and means to do that. And PVA routinely ceased fire when UN troops were evacuating the wounded. The only thing that the west complained bitterly is that the CCP "brainwashed" the POWs ---- this is a serious culture difference. At that time, China had no sense of "brainwashing" --- instead, the commies firmly believed that those US soldiers were also "poor brothers" like themselves, just had been cheated by the capitalists and sent to Korea as "cannon fodders". And thus it ws their duty to "educate and save" those "poor brothers". Yes, it is rediculously hard to believe. But history is just that rediculous and there are even more unbelievable (and even funny) stories about that rediculous war. Yet, they were true.

                  However, NKPA were totally, totally different. They would kill anyone captured --- if they believe there is nothing to be interrogated from them. The ywere esp. cruel toward their own people: the Koreans. There were many stories as well as photos showing NKPA committing such atrocities. The only point I would want to add here is that ROK troops were no better. There is something very strange buried deep in those mountain clan people --- a very strange hatred against their enemies personally.
                  Attn to ALL my opponents:

                  If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

                  Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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                  • #10
                    The "honeymoon" (heeh.. what a bloody honeymoon) between China and N.Korea almost immediately ended with the end of the War.

                    Kim never viewed China as a worthy "ally" except when he needed Chinese blood desperately. When the crisis was over, he immediately dumped China and rushed into the hug of the powerful SU. In late 50s, the relation between China and Soviet Union had already deteriorated. And soon the crack were so huge and obvious to everyone. Kim actually stood firmly by the Russian side. Yet he just did not internationally broadcast his opposition to China.

                    Inside N. Korea, there was very soon a "clinse" of Chinese "infection" ----- for example, one of the most unhuman thing they did was to those Korean women who married Chinese PVA soldiers. They forced all of them to divorce and in some extreme cases, when the wife refused to depart with her husband, she were sent to prison as "traitors" ... and in N.Korea, being sent to prison means not much different from death.

                    There were many other things they did to "purge" the influence of PVA, including "purging" the PVA involvement in the War in their later version of history textbooks. In their textbook, the War was a "great victory led by their dearest Father Kim, fought by the bravest People's Army". There was almost no words mentioning the great sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of Chinese during those years. And soon, Chinese radio programs were forbidden and labelled as "enemy propaganda" in N.Korea. (I do not know the exact date of such policy, but I do know it is still the situation today.)

                    Since 1960's, until 1980s, China had went through a very wrong and painful path by deadly mistakes/crimes of the communist party. During those years, China had very strange relationships with literually any other country in the world. (another typical example is Vietnam --- also right after they won their struggle, they turned against China... ---- it was not merely other people's problem. It was a serious problem of Chinese themselves at that time.)

                    But after 1980 (precisely, 1978), China started her economic reform ---- another long and tough way to go, but this time, at least a correct direction. Since that day, China changed a great great lot. And China also wanted to help N.Korea to change. Of course, that is refused ---- who would accept any advice from his enemy? (although even today, the world considers China and N.Korea as "allies" .... what a funny thing! ... everyone thinks you two were friends, except yourselves! )

                    Ironically, South Korea soon became the major trade partner and investor in reformed China. Today, S. Korea entrepreneurs are very common in mainland China and they hold a large share of Chinese markets. The friendship between these two former "enemies" is also growing everyday (btw, they share a common old "enemy" --- japs .. ) ---- although esp. due to the tricky eastern Asian people's character, it is quite complicated between these 3 major countries in Asia (Japan, China, S.Korea) ---- the huge volumn of trades bind them tightly today. (for example, this year, Japan's export to China exceeds 8.6 trillion yen.)

                    However, N.Korea remained closed and its people's suffering stayed as a pity for humanity of our modern world.
                    Attn to ALL my opponents:

                    If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

                    Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ER Chaser
                      LoL ... good luck, my dear sub

                      but I check the link again, I failed to find out where it said it was the South invaded North ... if it did, that is a terrible mistake. It was absolutely the North invaded South. (probably you mistook the sentence there "China decided to intervene when the ROK units crossed the 38 parallel" as it was saying the South invaded first? ---- that is totally different. ROK units crossed 38 parallel after the North was already summarily beaten after Inchon landing. It was then China started to prepare for intervention.)

                      I will probably need to take more time to read that FAQ again before I can sum up what I differ with it. I just had the impression when I read it, I disagree with quite a few points.

                      But now let me first continue with my main topic ...
                      yeah, you are right, go on...
                      a brain cell

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Big Picture On Korea

                        It does help us to understand what is going on in the Korean Peninsula to have a good grip on the historical factor involved, as 'Amublance Chaser' has so clearly demonstrated.

                        A really good book which shows the picture before, during, and after the Korean War is The Fifty-Year War by Norman Friedman [Annapolis, MD: US Naval Institute Press]. In particular, the idea that the USSR, China, and the PDRK were all happy buddies with a complete plan of domination is shown to be total buncombe.

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Big Picture On Korea

                          Originally posted by JohnHowardOxley
                          It does help us to understand what is going on in the Korean Peninsula to have a good grip on the historical factor involved, as 'Amublance Chaser' has so clearly demonstrated.
                          LoL .. another one discovered "ambulance" conspricy ...

                          Actually it was supposed to mean for "E(rwin) R(ommel)" Chaser ...
                          Attn to ALL my opponents:

                          If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

                          Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Watching the History Channel today. They had a program about the "Flying Tigers" in China. How the squad only lost five American lives while "protecting" China by shooting down 496 Japanese planes. This was ca. 1942

                            Next thing you know, their Communists fighting against Allied troops (Americans) in Korea.

                            Kinda makes a person wonder. Is it safe to help anybody without getting it in the [email protected]$ in the end.

                            Mark
                            Deo Vindice
                            Si vis pacem, para bellum. (If you want peace, prepare for war.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by last_cav1971
                              Watching the History Channel today. They had a program about the "Flying Tigers" in China. How the squad only lost five American lives while "protecting" China by shooting down 496 Japanese planes. This was ca. 1942

                              Next thing you know, their Communists fighting against Allied troops (Americans) in Korea.

                              Kinda makes a person wonder. Is it safe to help anybody without getting it in the [email protected]$ in the end.

                              Mark
                              Deo Vindice
                              LoL ... easy, simply do NOT help anyone, then you are safe

                              Just kidding ..

                              Seriously, there are a few things I think I should add here (sorry I did not write anything about China and America, because the thread was about China and Korea at the beginning.):

                              1. Chinese people, you may safely take me as a good example, truly and deeply appreciate what the American people did for us during WWII. Without the help of the American people, without their sacrifice, our struggle against the Japanese invaders would have been unthinkably harder and our suffering would have been even much longer. In particular, the "Flying Tigers", as the greatest example of the selfless devotion of our American friends lives as a legend of heroism in the hearts of generations of Chinese. For me, this was true since my childhood. BTW, I am from mainland, and during my early age, the communism ideology was still very strong, fully controling every details of education system. Yet, the Communist Party's textbooks never denied this part of how much the Americans helped us in our most difficult times. The reason I want to emphysize this here is because many people in the west picture the communists like monsters and devils .. that is not necessarily true. They are also human beings. Some of them are really bad. But many (I'd say, most) of them just had a false belief due to this or that kind of reasons.

                              2. However, when it comes to the relationship between nations --- things are more political (and less human .. ) and hypocrite... The reason for the war between China and the US in Korea was rediculus from today's point of view. It was truly a wrong war. But who to blame? People have many different views. The easiest part is that we all agree that Kim Il Seng was the troublemaker. No one argues about that (... or maybe because there is no N. Koreans here? ... ) . Anyway, this idiot ignited the flame of the bloodshed. The problem for the US and China was that no one, at that time, in these two nations, had both enough power and wisdom to stop the tragedy ahead of them.

                              3. The communists and American, at that time, were enemies. And I believe even today, the Americans (and in general the entire west) still take any communists as their enemies. The Americans did help ALL Chinese in the Anti-Japan war, however, the Americans also helped the nationalists (KMT) troops in the later civil war, with geniune efforts. That was till 1949. In later that year and early 1950, there was a possibility that the communist and the US could make a deal on the defeated and exiled KMT remenants on the island of Taiwan. There were records showing some compromise had already been made. However the great Idiot Kim started the war in Korea, without any notice to the Chinese. Any negotiation between the two camps burned with the ashes of bodies of Korean people. CCP did not want to get involved and have to face a powerful foe like the US. However, when the war unfolded, CCP was left with no other choice but to intervene. I wrote quite a few things about the reasoning from Chinese side in other threads, if you are interested in reading them...

                              But here, some additional point I want to draw is that a war for ideology, or even merely hostility based on ideology is really silly and it is usually only a tool used by rulers to manipulate its people to achieve certain political goals. The people, the soldiers in particular, on both sides are the only victims of such meaningless struggles.
                              Attn to ALL my opponents:

                              If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

                              Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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