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  • Is there still a friction?

    Not being that in the know about the ACW I am turning to you guys for some info. Is there still some friction between the North and the South in the 21st century?
    http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

    Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

  • #2
    Yeah!

    Some of it real, some feigned.

    There are some hardcore "good ol' boys" and others who continue to fight the war, because it just riles feathers, and can be fun. Others do it because it is "expected".
    Retreat hell, we just got here. Every Marine, a rifleman.

    Never let the facts get in the way of the truth.

    Comment


    • #3
      Unfortunately for some the ACW is NOT ancient history.
      Lance W.

      Peace through superior firepower.

      Comment


      • #4
        I wouldn't call it friction, but the ACW is still alive and well. Just look at all the times there have been flag debates in the last few years. Although a few years back, in the mid-90s, I remember an incident. For some reason, I think b/c they thought the flag was racist, New York took down the Georgia flag in Albany, In retaliation Governor Zell Miller (who only a few years before had actually to fought to change the flag) took down the New York flag. Both states eventually agreed to put the flags back up, but NY took it down again a few months later. No reason for any of it, other than the Yankees just didn't like our flag! :quest:
        "Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for"
        "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching"

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Is there still a friction?

          Originally posted by dannybou
          Not being that in the know about the ACW I am turning to you guys for some info. Is there still some friction between the North and the South in the 21st century?
          I'll respond to this later when I can formulate a good answer that should not stir up to much controversy.


          Cheers!



          Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

          "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

          What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

          Comment


          • #6
            The War for Southern Independence should NEVER be considered ancient history.

            There are too many of us left who are proud of our heritage to let it go that easily. We should not want to forget our history, for without our history, we have no ground on which to base our future.
            It remains much the same today as then. We Southerners just wonder, as Lee did, "Why cant those people just leave us alone?"

            Mark
            Deo Vindice
            Si vis pacem, para bellum. (If you want peace, prepare for war.)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Re: Is there still a friction?

              Originally posted by RStory
              I'll respond to this later when I can formulate a good answer that should not stir up to much controversy.


              Cheers!



              I hope I didn't stir something up?!?!?!?!?!?
              http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

              Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Re: Re: Is there still a friction?

                Originally posted by dannybou
                I hope I didn't stir something up?!?!?!?!?!?
                Nah. Just wanted to gather my thoughts up before posting.


                Yes; there is friction between the North and the South. Only some of it comes from the civil war though.

                Some of it deals all the way back to the founding of the country. The north is mostly urban and industrial and more catholic. The south is rural, agriculturial based and protestism. So if you took a quick and dirty "sterotype" of a northerner than you'd say he is blue collar, factory worker used to working and traveling communely.

                The average southerner on the other hand is also blue collar, but is a farmer and is very independent. A farmer is judge, juror and executioner when it comes to his farm. This breeds stubborn and independant cusses.

                Now the northern population can take having somebody else impose some degree of control on their life because the northern conscious is a Communal based one.

                The southerner conscience has no take with that. As the farmer archtype; he is independent. He can only cooperate for short -object defined periods. Otherwise he resents the intrusion of outsiders on what he considers his perogratives.

                There fore there will always be tension between two totally different mindsets.

                When somebody tells a southerner that his cause was bad; he'll resist because 99.99% of the southerners were fighting for their homeland.


                It's just a shame that southern symbols were hijacked by people who do NOT represent what a real southerner feels.

                I was a lot more eloquent in my master's thesis on transportation.

                Cheers!


                Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

                What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Read "Confederates in the Attic" by Tony Horwitz (sp) it is very insightful esp. seeing as though Im getting back (I'm 17 the last one was when I was like 5 or 6) into re-enacting. I'm Asian American and have strong southern roots (my dad who is American has done the genealogy, most of us were farmers or worked white-collar jobs).
                  The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                  Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The southern mindset has always been one of contradictions. On one hand is the discipline of southern society, including its military tradition. On the other hand it is also proud of being independent minded and doesn't take kindly to orders from "outsiders". Us southerners are very complicated, yet extremely simple, folks
                    "Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for"
                    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Those people?!

                      Originally posted by last_cav1971
                      The War for Southern Independence should NEVER be considered ancient history.

                      There are too many of us left who are proud of our heritage to let it go that easily. We should not want to forget our history, for without our history, we have no ground on which to base our future.
                      It remains much the same today as then. We Southerners just wonder, as Lee did, "Why cant those people just leave us alone?"

                      Mark
                      Deo Vindice
                      Those people would have to be since 1963, LB Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H W Bush, Bill Clinton and George W Bush. Also, four out of the first five presidents were Virginians. Five out of the first seven were from the South. So, with five out of the last eight presidents with Southern roots and five out of the first seven with Southern roots - just who are "those people"?!

                      Those people who who speak of just happened to borrow the White House from Southerners for a while, of course, you guys couldn't tolerate that. Why? Because slavery must spread to maintain that power that the Southerners enjoyed thus far.

                      Those people may have found a way to negotiate a way to a successful peace if a Federal facility was not fired on by men who went to West Point.

                      The Constitution does say nothing about secession, whether it was allowed or not. In previous tries of secession the clamps were put on those who attempted it. So while the Constitution is mum, historical precedence is not! Also, while the Constitution is not strictly a contract it has all five features which make a contract - offer, acceptance, consideration, legal subject matter and legal mental capacity of the signing parties. Secession, then could be considered a breach of contract in the strictest of terms. Also the Articles of Confederation were redone into the Constitution because they were did not give the Federal authority enough power. This was agreed upon by Federalists (like Washington, a Virginian) and Democratic-Republicans (like Jefferson, a Virginian).
                      I come here to discuss a piece of business with you and what are you gonna do? You're gonna tell me fairy tales? James Caan in the movie "Thief" ca 1981

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The states did not intend to establish a supreme judge to rule over them. Before entering into the proposed constitutional contract, the state of VA (along with others, both North and South) declared the legal right of the sovereign community (people of the state) to recall any delegated power if it is used in an act of oppression or injury against the people.

                        To quote John C. Calhoun from the Senate floor:
                        "The Constitution has admitted the jurisdiction of the United States within the limits of the several States only so far as the delegated powers authorize;beyond that they (the federal government) are intruders, and may rightfully be expelled."

                        When the Constitution was outlined and read, the words 'Perpetual Union' which had been in the Articles of Confederation were omitted. Alexander Hamilton and others noticing it, and desiring a Union, opposed the adoption of the Constitution. Someone moved to have it made a National Government, but this motion was unanimously defeated. Senator Ellsworth of Connecticut and Senator Gorham of Massachusettes have testified to this. --Ellitot's Debates, Vol. V, p. 908

                        "Any people whatever have a right to abolish the existing government and form a new one that suits them better."--Abraham Lincoln, Congressional Records, 1847.

                        "The right to secede may be a revolutionary one, but it exists nevertheless; and we do not see how one party can have a right to do what another party has a right to prevent. We must ever resist the asserted right of any State to remain in the Union and nullify or defy the laws thereof; to withdraw from the Union is another matter. And when a section of our Union resolves to go out, we shall resist any coercive acts to keep it in. We hope never to live in a Republic where one section is pinned to the other section by bayonets." --Horace Greeley---New York Tribune

                        "In 1860, had Pres. Buchanan sent an armed force to prevent the nullification of the Fugitive Slave Law, as Andrew Jackson threatened to do in 1833, there would have been a secession of fifteen Northern States instead of thirteen Southern States.
                        Had the Democrats won out in 1860 the Northern States would have been the seceding States, not the Southern."--George Lunt of Mass.----"Origin of the Late War"

                        Study, study, study..........

                        Mark
                        Deo Vindice
                        Si vis pacem, para bellum. (If you want peace, prepare for war.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Remember, the idea of secession was first begun in New England. If the War of 1812 had not ended when it did, the result of the Hartford Convention may have very well been secession. This after New England states continued to sell arms and supplies to the British while the U.S. was at war with them! That, in any sense of the word, is out and out treason.
                          "Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for"
                          "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Is there still a friction?

                            Originally posted by dannybou
                            Not being that in the know about the ACW I am turning to you guys for some info. Is there still some friction between the North and the South in the 21st century?
                            In my inexpert opinion, having spent about two years in the south (GA & MS), There is some fricition among some Southerners on a very base level. However, I think that the resentment is celebrated more in the breech than in the observance. Despite the rebel flags on bumpers, car windows, on flagpoles, on buildings and elsewhere, I think that most nostalgia for the Confederacy is rather like the fact that cavalry uniforms were worn long after the advent of the tank. It is a knee-jerk reaction. I would think that you may not be considered a man, or a proper Southerner if you do not evince some kinship with other "Rebels".
                            Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                            (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Quotes vs events

                              Originally posted by last_cav1971
                              The states did not intend to establish a supreme judge to rule over them. Before entering into the proposed constitutional contract, the state of VA (along with others, both North and South) declared the legal right of the sovereign community (people of the state) to recall any delegated power if it is used in an act of oppression or injury against the people.

                              To quote John C. Calhoun from the Senate floor:
                              "The Constitution has admitted the jurisdiction of the United States within the limits of the several States only so far as the delegated powers authorize;beyond that they (the federal government) are intruders, and may rightfully be expelled."

                              When the Constitution was outlined and read, the words 'Perpetual Union' which had been in the Articles of Confederation were omitted. Alexander Hamilton and others noticing it, and desiring a Union, opposed the adoption of the Constitution. Someone moved to have it made a National Government, but this motion was unanimously defeated. Senator Ellsworth of Connecticut and Senator Gorham of Massachusettes have testified to this. --Ellitot's Debates, Vol. V, p. 908

                              "Any people whatever have a right to abolish the existing government and form a new one that suits them better."--Abraham Lincoln, Congressional Records, 1847.

                              "The right to secede may be a revolutionary one, but it exists nevertheless; and we do not see how one party can have a right to do what another party has a right to prevent. We must ever resist the asserted right of any State to remain in the Union and nullify or defy the laws thereof; to withdraw from the Union is another matter. And when a section of our Union resolves to go out, we shall resist any coercive acts to keep it in. We hope never to live in a Republic where one section is pinned to the other section by bayonets." --Horace Greeley---New York Tribune

                              "In 1860, had Pres. Buchanan sent an armed force to prevent the nullification of the Fugitive Slave Law, as Andrew Jackson threatened to do in 1833, there would have been a secession of fifteen Northern States instead of thirteen Southern States.
                              Had the Democrats won out in 1860 the Northern States would have been the seceding States, not the Southern."--George Lunt of Mass.----"Origin of the Late War"

                              Study, study, study..........

                              Mark
                              Deo Vindice
                              Regarding paragraph #1 and "the legal right of the sovereign community (people of the state) to recall any delegated power if it is used in an act of oppression or injury against the people.", you mean like the Fugitive Slave Act which allowed agents for slaveowners to invade the homes of those who they suspected of harboring escaped slaves and do whatever they like in the commission of the home invasion?

                              Other than that, you have opinions and parts of debates by legislators, including Lincoln at the time (who later said that "a house divided against itself cannot stand."), and members of the press saying what suited them at one moment and not the next. You did not cite a specific phrase from the Constitution allowing for secession. I am well aware of the Constitution allowing for a legal overthrow by way of another Constitutional Convention.

                              Even Southerners like Jackson, refused to let SC secede over the Nullification Act. BTW, I remember this coming up in another post in another thread in the ACW forum. I asked Dr. Stephen Wise, who resides in SC, earlier this month about the Nullification Act. I specifically asked him if it was an attempt by SC to secede. He answered, "yes and no". It never came to a point where secession was threatened by the state per se, but there was a push by certain parties w/i the state to secede. Jackson had readied for such a threat by mustering anti-secession forces within the state to quash such a move. It never came to a point where these forces had to be mobilized to counter any secession move. Now I ask, if secession were okay, why didn't New England secede during the War of 1812 and again over later pro-Southern legislation on slavery? Because the kibosh was put on it. We still have states talking about secession. Most recently it was Hawaii about five to ten years ago. Before that it was Texas. In the 1930s, it was Washington State.

                              BTW, I'm willing to bet that many of these quotes came from "The South Was Right" by the Kennedy Brothers. It sounds like their work.
                              I come here to discuss a piece of business with you and what are you gonna do? You're gonna tell me fairy tales? James Caan in the movie "Thief" ca 1981

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