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  • #31
    For himself to know when to attack... he would need more notice than that.
    SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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    • #32
      And the cavalry battle between Gregg and Stuart took place at least a mile east of Cemetery Ridge.
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Massena View Post
        What ruined Pickett's charge was the Union artillery massed to meet it. They were quite literally shot to pieces and if Hancock had not countermanded Hunt's order not to engage in counterbattery fire, none of them would have made it across. And Hunt maintained that to the day he died. Hunt was more than correct to give that order, and Hancock was wrong to countermand it.

        Custer was not the commander of the Union cavalry at Gettysburg-Gregg was. Custer was one of his subordinates. It was not Custer that defeated Stuart, but Gregg.

        Carhart is wrong in both cases.
        Confederate were advancing a mile across open field up a slope. It doesn't take a genius to use artillery.

        Had Stuard attacked Cemetery Ridge in rear, the Unionists on the ridge may have broke.

        Hancock evidently made the judgement call to cover his infantry with counter-battery fire. Hunt, the artillerist, may have differed in opinion. We'll never know if he was correct.
        "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

        "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

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        • #34
          Originally posted by dgfred View Post
          Would Lee have known when/if Stuart was attacking the Union from behind?
          Maybe, but not for sure. That clash may have been audible. Even more critical though, how could he have known whether or not it was succeeding? No radios then, and with the rebel artillery running low on ammo as Alexander told Longstreet, there was no time to wait on visual confirmation!

          This type of coordinated action over the distances involved having success at that time is as much dependent on pure dumb luck as any other factor.

          Regards,
          Dennis
          If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

          Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

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          • #35
            Stuart, according to Carhart, signaled Lee with three consecutive cannon blast, just after these three shots, the Confederate artillery opened up on Cemetery Ridge. In fact he states that Stuart personally oversaw the firing himself and was adamant about the time they were to be fired. Stuart then timed his charged accordingly.
            The controversy is that Lee never issued written instructions to Stuart or other generals including Pickett, or Longstreet or others mentioning such orders being issued or hearing Lee state this was part of his plan. Stuart and Lee met privately on the night of the 2nd,
            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Massena View Post
              And the cavalry battle between Gregg and Stuart took place at least a mile east of Cemetery Ridge.
              That is covered in Carhart's book, I think you would enjoy the read,
              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by dgfred View Post
                Would Lee have known when/if Stuart was attacking the Union from behind?
                Carhart basis part of his argument on the fact that Stuart would never order an attack without Lee's approval or his direct order.
                There is no record (according to Carhart) that Lee issued such an order. That would not be surprising to me.
                here is some info of Mr. Carhart
                https://www.goodreads.com/author/sho...02.Tom_Carhart
                Last edited by Urban hermit; 22 May 20, 20:21.
                Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

                  That is covered in Carhart's book, I think you would enjoy the read,
                  I've ordered it so we'll see how it is. Thanks for posting about it. I heard about the book when it came out and then inconveniently forgot about it.
                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Massena View Post

                    I've ordered it so we'll see how it is. Thanks for posting about it. I heard about the book when it came out and then inconveniently forgot about it.
                    I was just looking at some of his other books when I saw he wrote "The Golden Fleece: High-Risk Adventure At West Point" with the foreword by Wesley K. Clark.
                    In the fall of 1965 West Point cadet Tom Carhart and five of his classmates from the U.S. Military Academy pulled off a feat of extraordinary ingenuity, precision, and raw guts: the theft of the billy goat mascot from their rival, the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, just before the biggest football game of the year.
                    LOL
                    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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                    • #40
                      My plebe year in 1972 the goat was 'stolen' again and paraded in the mess hall at dinner. It was absolutely hilarious as well as a great time.

                      To prevent any of the mule mascots being abducted, MPs were guarding them 24 hours a day.
                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by American87 View Post
                        No need for West Point or Princeton. I don't know any West Point authors on the Civil War.
                        Besides the authors of The West Point Atlas of American Wars and A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars, there are these:

                        https://www.amazon.com/Point-History...s=books&sr=1-2

                        https://www.amazon.com/West-Point-Hi...s=books&sr=1-1

                        https://www.amazon.com/West-Point-Hi...s=books&sr=1-1

                        https://www.amazon.com/West-Point-Hi...s=books&sr=1-2

                        One volume on the War of the Revolution, one on the Civil War, and two on War II. And there are also internal texts written on the various wars that are for the use of the cadets. Further, a series on warfare, including the Civil War, was written in the late 1960s and early 1970s as texts for the cadets and were later made available to the public at large.

                        Princeton has an excellent group of historians that have taught there, such as Peter Paret, who are among the best in the world.

                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                          Stuart, according to Carhart, signaled Lee with three consecutive cannon blast, just after these three shots, the Confederate artillery opened up on Cemetery Ridge. In fact he states that Stuart personally oversaw the firing himself and was adamant about the time they were to be fired. Stuart then timed his charged accordingly.
                          The controversy is that Lee never issued written instructions to Stuart or other generals including Pickett, or Longstreet or others mentioning such orders being issued or hearing Lee state this was part of his plan. Stuart and Lee met privately on the night of the 2nd,
                          There is such a thing as blast focus which can determine if loud explosions can be heard or not from a certain distance, depending on the weather. Relying on three cannon shots from the distance of over a mile to Cemetery Ridge and then another mile to the Confederate gunline is an 'iffy' proposition. Artillery used for signaling is not a reliable way of signaling.

                          And the meeting between Lee and Stuart may not have been a pleasant one, especially for Stuart. He had botched his mission at least for time spent away from the main army.

                          Since I don't have Carhart's book yet, is he using a reliable source for his ideas or is he spit-balling it?

                          You can read about Carhart in the excellent book The Long Gray Line by Rick Atkinson.
                          Last edited by Massena; 23 May 20, 15:15.
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Massena View Post

                            There is such a thing as blast focus which can determine if loud explosions can be heard or not from a certain distance, depending on the weather. Relying on three cannon shots from the distance of over a mile to Cemetery Ridge and then another mile to the Confederate gunline is an 'iffy' proposition. Artillery used for signaling is not a reliable way of signaling.

                            And the meeting between Lee and Stuart may not have been a pleasant one, especially for Stuart. He had botched his mission at least for time spent away from the main army.

                            Since I don't have Carhart's book yet, is he using a reliable source for his ideas or is he spit-balling it?

                            You can read about Carhart in the excellent book The Long Gray Line by Rick Atkinson.
                            He backs it up pretty well with original source materials, letters from witnesses.
                            His description of the engagements between the Union and CSA Cav. is the best I have read.
                            I'll have to find a copy on The Long Gray Line. Thanks for the tip!
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Massena View Post

                              Besides the authors of The West Point Atlas of American Wars and A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars, there are these:

                              https://www.amazon.com/Point-History...s=books&sr=1-2

                              https://www.amazon.com/West-Point-Hi...s=books&sr=1-1

                              https://www.amazon.com/West-Point-Hi...s=books&sr=1-1

                              https://www.amazon.com/West-Point-Hi...s=books&sr=1-2

                              One volume on the War of the Revolution, one on the Civil War, and two on War II. And there are also internal texts written on the various wars that are for the use of the cadets. Further, a series on warfare, including the Civil War, was written in the late 1960s and early 1970s as texts for the cadets and were later made available to the public at large.

                              Princeton has an excellent group of historians that have taught there, such as Peter Paret, who are among the best in the world.
                              Thanks for the resources.
                              "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                              "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Calling the move into Pennsylvania an invasion indicates that Lee and the ANV would be able to go there and sustain themselves for an extended period, say 6 months to a year. Is that the position taken with the OP?

                                Regards,
                                Dennis
                                If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

                                Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

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