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  • #46
    Originally posted by American87 View Post

    A much higher percentage of Northern free blacks of military age served than Northern whites of military age. 58% compared to <35%. Practically all free Northern black troops enlisted after the Emancipation Proclamation.

    About 40% of all white men in the South served, but that's the percentage of all ages, not military age. About 18% of all white men in the North served, but again this is all ages, not military age.
    Again, what is the base population the troops were drawn from?

    Your posting of percentages is useless without the population numbers. Further the total number who served is also another useful statistic which would put the issue on a sensible and useful basis.

    Further, the Confederacy used conscription as early as 1862 with certain exemptions for rich men or men who owned more than 20 slaves, the 'rich' exemption was later repealed.

    The conscription law passed by the Union was not successful, resulted in draft riots, and those drafter were not looked upon favorably in the volunteer regiments.

    Lastly, what are you trying to demonstrate?
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Massena View Post

      Again, what is the base population the troops were drawn from?

      Your posting of percentages is useless without the population numbers. Further the total number who served is also another useful statistic which would put the issue on a sensible and useful basis.

      Further, the Confederacy used conscription as early as 1862 with certain exemptions for rich men or men who owned more than 20 slaves, the 'rich' exemption was later repealed.

      The conscription law passed by the Union was not successful, resulted in draft riots, and those drafter were not looked upon favorably in the volunteer regiments.

      Lastly, what are you trying to demonstrate?
      These are just the facts. Make of them what you will. You're bringing in draft riots, conscription, the 20 slave rule... That's beyond the universe of my post. All I said was that demographically speaking, free Northern blacks and white Souterners were the most devoted groups of the war, which is true.
      "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

      "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by American87 View Post

        These are just the facts. Make of them what you will. You're bringing in draft riots, conscription, the 20 slave rule... That's beyond the universe of my post. All I said was that demographically speaking, free Northern blacks and white Souterners were the most devoted groups of the war, which is true.
        No, it is not correct and you have not demonstrated it as such. You have posted partial statistics which alone are meaningless without the other information.

        We are not now that strength which in old days
        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Massena View Post

          No, it is not correct and you have not demonstrated it as such. You have posted partial statistics which alone are meaningless without the other information.
          You haven't explained how my stats are "meaningless." 58% of the free black Nortern men of military age served, while <35% of white northern men of military age served. Practically all of the free black Northern men enlisted after the Emancipation Proclamation.

          This shows that free black Northern men were more devoted to the war than Northern white men. It was a volunteer army.

          About 40% of all Southern white men served, and that's across all ages, not just military ages. About 18% of Northern white men served, across all ages. This was in part due to the Confederate draft. In fact, a much higher percentage of Southern whites is possible, given to inadequate records and the 17-50 age range they enacted in 1864.

          But the Northern numbers are impressive. Free black men were obviously more devoted to the war, and they deserve recognition. They were fighting for their people, and perhaps theirselves in some way. White Northerners didn't care as much, and Lincoln never pushed for a complete draft; it's doubtful it would have succeeded.
          "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

          "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

          Comment


          • #50
            Perhaps the Northern White Males were more likely to have the money to hire a substitute?

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by American87 View Post

              You haven't explained how my stats are "meaningless." 58% of the free black Nortern men of military age served, while <35% of white northern men of military age served. Practically all of the free black Northern men enlisted after the Emancipation Proclamation.

              This shows that free black Northern men were more devoted to the war than Northern white men. It was a volunteer army.

              About 40% of all Southern white men served, and that's across all ages, not just military ages. About 18% of Northern white men served, across all ages. This was in part due to the Confederate draft. In fact, a much higher percentage of Southern whites is possible, given to inadequate records and the 17-50 age range they enacted in 1864.

              But the Northern numbers are impressive. Free black men were obviously more devoted to the war, and they deserve recognition. They were fighting for their people, and perhaps theirselves in some way. White Northerners didn't care as much, and Lincoln never pushed for a complete draft; it's doubtful it would have succeeded.
              I have explained the problem with your statistics-they are neither relevant nor meaningful because of your lack of numbers from which the percentages are derived.

              The northern volunteers were undoubtedly enthusiastic otherwise they would not have volunteered in large numbers to restore the Union.


              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                Perhaps the Northern White Males were more likely to have the money to hire a substitute?

                Pruitt
                It's possible. Blacks did serve as substitutes. Maybe they were singled out for substitute service, but who knows? The gap between black and white service is large. I don't think there's any official record of substitutes by race. Google isn't showing anything, and the sources I did find, including McPherson, rely on specialized studies rather than simple O.R.s.
                "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Massena View Post

                  I have explained the problem with your statistics-they are neither relevant nor meaningful because of your lack of numbers from which the percentages are derived.

                  The northern volunteers were undoubtedly enthusiastic otherwise they would not have volunteered in large numbers to restore the Union.

                  It's a percentage issue. The North had about 10 million white males-the South about 2.5 million. It makes sense for the North to have a larger absolute number of white males in the army. But in percentage terms, the Southern turnout was much higher. The same goes for free black men in the North.
                  "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                  "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by American87 View Post

                    It's a percentage issue. The North had about 10 million white males-the South about 2.5 million. It makes sense for the North to have a larger absolute number of white males in the army. But in percentage terms, the Southern turnout was much higher. The same goes for free black men in the North.
                    And your point is...what?

                    You haven't demonstrated anything substantial except a comparison of percentages. Historically, that is worthless.
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Massena View Post

                      And your point is...what?

                      You haven't demonstrated anything substantial except a comparison of percentages. Historically, that is worthless.
                      Itís up for you to decide what it means, not me. Thatís how history works. Historians provide information and leave it for the reader to judge. Except for Pruittís caveat, this shows that free northern blacks and southern whites were the most dedicated to the war effort. It shines light on who supported the war and who didnít.

                      We WILL debate the post and not the poster, PERIOD!!!

                      ACG Staff
                      Last edited by D1J1; 27 Jun 19, 06:02.
                      "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                      "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by American87 View Post

                        Itís up for you to decide what it means, not me. Thatís how history works. Historians provide information and leave it for the reader to judge. Except for Pruittís caveat, this shows that free northern blacks and southern whites were the most dedicated to the war effort. It shines light on who supported the war and who didnít. Frankly this one stat is a larger contribution to history than anything youíve ever written.
                        No, it doesn't.

                        That isn't how 'history works.' Historians conduct historical inquiry and assemble facts in order to make a conclusion. You haven't done that.

                        We
                        WILL
                        debate the post and not the poster,
                        PERIOD!!!

                        ACG Staff
                        Last edited by D1J1; 27 Jun 19, 06:01. Reason: Delete personal attack
                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Massena View Post

                          No, it doesn't.

                          That isn't how 'history works.' Historians conduct historical inquiry and assemble facts in order to make a conclusion. You haven't done that, and, unfortunately, that is usual when you attempt to conduct a historical discussion.

                          Are you now nominating yourself as a historian?

                          What are your credentials?
                          Why are you changing the subject? Stick with the USCT if you don't mind. My "conclusion" is that free Northern black men and Southern white men were the most devoted demographics in the war effort. I've said that over and over... but you wish it wasn't so. Your mind blocks it out. Read my posts again, and with an open mind. Don't approach research with your conclusion already in mind: examine the sources, and then decide for yourself. That's how history works. It's not even much of a conclusion: it's common sense based on the sources.

                          You're arguing that percentage statistics aren't valid, because the North enlisted a greater number of troops. You can hold this argument sure, and you have your reaons, but even you have to admit it's weak.

                          Some academics are all about making arguments, but that is not how history works. Real historians present the facts, and they let the reader decide for themselves. How many of the REAL historians that you know of actually make arguments and try to prove a conclusion? I'm sure you can name several former grad students who have done that, but their literature fades with the next season's journal or once they die and stop networking to plug their books. REAL historians present the facts, and leave it.
                          "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                          "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by American87 View Post

                            Why are you changing the subject? Stick with the USCT if you don't mind. My "conclusion" is that free Northern black men and Southern white men were the most devoted demographics in the war effort. I've said that over and over... but you wish it wasn't so. Your mind blocks it out. Read my posts again, and with an open mind. Don't approach research with your conclusion already in mind: examine the sources, and then decide for yourself. That's how history works. It's not even much of a conclusion: it's common sense based on the sources.

                            You're arguing that percentage statistics aren't valid, because the North enlisted a greater number of troops. You can hold this argument sure, and you have your reaons, but even you have to admit it's weak.

                            Some academics are all about making arguments, but that is not how history works. Real historians present the facts, and they let the reader decide for themselves. How many of the REAL historians that you know of actually make arguments and try to prove a conclusion? I'm sure you can name several former grad students who have done that, but their literature fades with the next season's journal or once they die and stop networking to plug their books. REAL historians present the facts, and leave it.
                            You have not proven your conclusion, and from studying the Civil War for decades your 'conclusion' is wrong.

                            And you haven't answered the two questions put to you. Why not?

                            We are not now that strength which in old days
                            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Massena View Post

                              You have not proven your conclusion, and from studying the Civil War for decades your 'conclusion' is wrong.

                              And you haven't answered the two questions put to you. Why not?
                              I'm just saying this one stat is a larger contribution to historical research than anything you've written. I don't see what my "credentials" have to do with that. You don't even know who I am.

                              My conclusion is correct, except for the caveat that Pruitt introduced.
                              "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                              "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by American87 View Post

                                I'm just saying this one stat is a larger contribution to historical research than anything you've written. I don't see what my "credentials" have to do with that. You don't even know who I am.

                                My conclusion is correct, except for the caveat that Pruitt introduced.
                                'You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.'-Senator Patrick Moynihan

                                In short, your conclusion is not proven. The North fielded volunteer regiments to fight the war and they were still being formed as late as 1862 (such as the 20th Maine). And with the exception of the regular units from the prewar US Army, that is how the North fought the war. That clearly demonstrates the enthusiasm for the war to restore the Union.
                                We are not now that strength which in old days
                                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                                Comment

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