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Pickett's Charge .Why?

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  • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

    marktwain is probably correct in that the Chickahominy was flooded; many bridges were also burned by the Union troops in full retreat. Massena fails to mention the reasons for any of his gripes. The fact is that all can be explained and excepted under the situation Jackson was placed in, Lee wasn't concerned. I also seem to recall that Lee gave Jackson half the ANV during the campaign and it was a Confederate victory. Jackson remains a legend to those that are scholarly.
    Exactly. Lee also gave Jackson half the army after the campain, and sent him to fight Pope at Cedar Mountain. That's quite the "demotion."
    "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

    "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by American87 View Post
      The Jackson narrative would do well in another thread.
      Hotchkiss had no time to make maps. Jackson marched his men right from the Valley to the banks of the Chickahominy. The maps Confederates were using could be frustratingly inadequite, and the terrain was studded with roads and intersections.
      This is absolutely not the handicap some posters would love to make it. Jackson had plenty of troops who were from the Valley. The citizens of the Valley by and large supported the rebel cause and would have certainly been able to provide him the intelligence needed to overcome any obstacles caused by inadequate maps. Jackson had his good and bad days as any mortal did. He was not the second coming of Jesus Christ that some make him.

      Regards,
      Dennis
      If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

      Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by D1J1 View Post

        This is absolutely not the handicap some posters would love to make it. Jackson had plenty of troops who were from the Valley. The citizens of the Valley by and large supported the rebel cause and would have certainly been able to provide him the intelligence needed to overcome any obstacles caused by inadequate maps. Jackson had his good and bad days as any mortal did. He was not the second coming of Jesus Christ that some make him.

        Regards,
        Dennis
        And in one case a local guide took the wrong road because it had the same name as the road that was the intended route. I've traveled the area, and without a GPS it isn't easy to navigate on the coastal plain of Virginia. Jackson may not have been the second coming of Christ, but in comparison to his Union counterpart, he was Godly.


        My worst jump story:
        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
        No lie.

        ~
        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

        Comment


        • Originally posted by D1J1 View Post

          This is absolutely not the handicap some posters would love to make it. Jackson had plenty of troops who were from the Valley. The citizens of the Valley by and large supported the rebel cause and would have certainly been able to provide him the intelligence needed to overcome any obstacles caused by inadequate maps. Jackson had his good and bad days as any mortal did. He was not the second coming of Jesus Christ that some make him.

          Regards,
          Dennis
          Jackson had no problem with maps from the valley. He sent Hotchkiss to make them. But when he arrived near the Chickahominy, he was provided with inadequate maps.
          "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

          "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

          Comment


          • Jackson is a God.
            "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

            "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

            Comment


            • Is the Shelby Foote 3 volume tome readable or is it heavy heavy academia ?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

                marktwain is probably correct in that the Chickahominy was flooded; many bridges were also burned by the Union troops in full retreat. Massena fails to mention the reasons for any of his gripes. The fact is that all can be explained and excepted under the situation Jackson was placed in, Lee wasn't concerned. I also seem to recall that Lee gave Jackson half the ANV during the campaign and it was a Confederate victory. Jackson remains a legend to those that are scholarly.
                Thanks.

                I
                checked wiki. The Chick is prone to rapid flash floods , and spreads out into vast swamps....John Smith sailed up it when ,err, following Pocohontas.....
                alluvial mud sucks iron wheels down. Richard of York. In 1460, trapped an army of Lancasterians
                by retreating across a river prone to flooding, then counter attacking the less than half of the troops that had waded across a treacherous Ford - with their cannon stuck in the middle.

                As we saw in"Dances with Wolves' fords can be treacherous....
                Last edited by marktwain; 14 Apr 19, 22:46.
                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                Comment


                • Maybe this has been covered in respect of Lee's view that the South had to win there to push the North to the negotiation table. I know Lee encountered the Union Army at Gettysburg whilst doing some foraging for supplies and had a lack of scouting due to Stewarts cavalry not staying close due to a lack of discipline so wasn't sure of his surroundings . BUT having lost the high ground , why still choose to fight there? Meades placement was a superb defensive position. Why not try to manoeuvre till more favourable circumstances presented themselves ? Wellesley's victory at Waterloo has often been credited of where he chose to fight and had done that through much of the peninsular war too. Lee was no fool either but I am aware he was a gambler. Is that why he chose to fight anyway or some other reason?
                  Last edited by copenhagen; 14 Apr 19, 17:02.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                    Is the Shelby Foote 3 volume tome readable or is it heavy heavy academia ?
                    Shelby Foote is very readable, but one has to keep in mind that he is very Southern!
                    Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

                      Shelby Foote is very readable, but one has to keep in mind that he is very Southern!
                      Well I do declare that I thought that when I heard the man speak with a certain drawl.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                        Is the Shelby Foote 3 volume tome readable or is it heavy heavy academia ?
                        Very readable!
                        My worst jump story:
                        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                        No lie.

                        ~
                        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                          Maybe this has been covered in respect of Lee's view that the South had to win there to push the North to the negotiation table. I know Lee encountered the Union Army at Gettysburg whilst doing some foraging for supplies and had a lack of scouting due to Stewarts cavalry not staying close due to a lack of discipline so wasn't sure of his surroundings . BUT having lost the high ground , why still choose to fight there? Meades placement was a superb defensive position. Why not try to manoeuvre till more favourable circumstances presented themselves ? Wellesley's victory at Waterloo has often been credited of where he chose to fight and had done that through much of the peninsular war too. Lee was no fool either but I am aware he was a gambler. Is that why he chose to fight anyway or some other reason?
                          Because the Union line had been breached on the second day by Wright's Georgia Brigade, without support on his flanks he withdrew. Lee believed that with proper artillery support and fresh troops the Union line would collapse as it had earlier. Had Lee's artillery been effective the charge may have been successful.
                          My worst jump story:
                          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                          No lie.

                          ~
                          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

                            And in one case a local guide took the wrong road because it had the same name as the road that was the intended route. I've traveled the area, and without a GPS it isn't easy to navigate on the coastal plain of Virginia. Jackson may not have been the second coming of Christ, but in comparison to his Union counterpart, he was Godly.


                            Who was in command-the guide or Jackson? Perhaps he should have done a recce before taking the wrong road...?

                            What did all the commanders throughout history do without GPS?
                            We are not now that strength which in old days
                            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                              Who was in command-the guide or Jackson? Perhaps he should have done a recce before taking the wrong road...?

                              What did all the commanders throughout history do without GPS?
                              The same thing happened several times with Union troops as they were in full retreat. I'm surprised you didn't complain about that.
                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                                Is the Shelby Foote 3 volume tome readable or is it heavy heavy academia ?
                                I got rid of my copy of Shelby Foote's trilogy years ago after both reading it and listening to his ramblings on Ken Burns' documentary on the war. If you don't have a solid basis in European military history it is difficult to understand in perspective American military history and, apparently, Foote did not have that advantage. Plus he was also a novelist which seems to detract from his ability to be an historian. There are much better histories by actual historians on the war. I would not recommend Foote as a reference at all.

                                McPherson, Catton, and others are much better with a much better understanding of the war itself and history in general.
                                We are not now that strength which in old days
                                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                                Comment

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